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Encarnacion to the Tribe
#21
At least it's not the Red Sox
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#22
^^ Great point ^^
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#23
(2016-12-23, 08:53 AM)RyeRocks Wrote: Toronto made the best offer, but it had an expiry date and was very early on in the process.

Both sides had very different timelines on getting a deal done, and I believe that both were interested in working together but the difference in opinion on *when* the deal should happen was their undoing.

I don't really view it as either side being at fault.  What if Toronto waited until now to try and sign Encarnacion, and got outbid, and all the other options were already signed too?  Encarnacion and his agent obviously thought they could land a bigger contract on the free market, but it never materialized.

Good deal for the Indians to land him for only 3 years.

The problem with the other options is that the Jays overpaid for them, when you consider for EE got, and they aren't that good. From Keith Law this morning:

https://twitter.com/_DavidSingh/status/8...13952?s=07

Both sides totally misread the market for him. The agent cost EE millions of dollars, but I am sure EE - like 99% of the world - thought he could get a bettter offer.

The Jays didn't want to get involved in a bidding war since it would have been a distraction - and the bidding war didn't happen.

And after the fact, it's too bad the Jays weren't willing to be flexible and re-trenched their position because they undoubtedly are a worse baseball team at the moment. And with a fizzling FA market and limited trade options, I cannot see them getting better.

I still argue they should have signed him last week and figure out the rest later. He presented good value as he did for the Jays for the last 4 or 5 seasons, and when value like that presents itself to you, you damn well better try your best to make the deal.

It's not EE's or Kinzer's responsibility to put the best team out there. That's for Rogers, Shapiro and Atkins. So ultimately, it's on them to get the deal done. They may have made the best offer but their negotiating tact proved to be wrong.
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#24
(2016-12-23, 10:14 AM)andreroy Wrote: And after the fact, it's too bad the Jays weren't willing to be flexible and re-trenched their position because they undoubtedly are a worse baseball team at the moment. And with a fizzling FA market and limited trade options, I cannot see them getting better.

I still argue they should have signed him last week and figure out the rest later. He presented good value as he did for the Jays for the last 4 or 5 seasons, and when value like that presents itself to you, you damn well better try your best to make the deal.

The flaw in that thinking though is that even had the Jays re-engaged EE there is nothing saying he would have signed that deal either. He very well might have just used that new offer from the Jays to drive up his value with other teams and ignite the bidding war that he and his agent wanted (and the Jays wanted to avoid).
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#25
(2016-12-23, 10:35 AM)Andrew Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 10:14 AM)andreroy Wrote: And after the fact, it's too bad the Jays weren't willing to be flexible and re-trenched their position because they undoubtedly are a worse baseball team at the moment. And with a fizzling FA market and limited trade options, I cannot see them getting better.

I still argue they should have signed him last week and figure out the rest later. He presented good value as he did for the Jays for the last 4 or 5 seasons, and when value like that presents itself to you, you damn well better try your best to make the deal.

The flaw in that thinking though is that even had the Jays re-engaged EE there is nothing saying he would have signed that deal either. He very well might have just used that new offer from the Jays to drive up his value with other teams and ignite the bidding war that he and his agent wanted (and the Jays wanted to avoid).

And so how would that impact the Jays in a negative way ?? For arguments sake, the bidding tops out at 3 years, 60M, what he signed for. Do you not think this is great value today for a player like EE ?? If it came down to the Jays or the Indians, I think we know where he plays. Management F'd this up any way you look at it. If the Indians had to pay more for his services, I don't see the downside for the Jays...
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#26
It's easy to use hindsight to say what should've been done, from both sides. Reality is that sometimes things move quickly in free agency and the Jays felt they needed to keep up with the 1B/DH market and they set a hard deadline for their offer. As it turned out, everyone - EE, his agent, Atkins, fans, the media - wrongly assumed EE would probably be offered more than $80M from someone. Had that been common knowledge from the get-go, obviously the parties involved would've done things differently.

It's disappointing that EE's not a Blue Jay anymore. I just don't see the point in trying to find someone to blame. You can't always get what you want in free agency.
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#27
(2016-12-23, 09:14 AM)northern1 Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 08:53 AM)RyeRocks Wrote: Toronto made the best offer, but it had an expiry date and was very early on in the process.

Both sides had very different timelines on getting a deal done, and I believe that both were interested in working together but the difference in opinion on *when* the deal should happen was their undoing.

I don't really view it as either side being at fault.  What if Toronto waited until now to try and sign Encarnacion, and got outbid, and all the other options were already signed too?  Encarnacion and his agent obviously thought they could land a bigger contract on the free market, but it never materialized.

Good deal for the Indians to land him for only 3 years.

Perhaps, but if you look at the options that are still out there, you see the Shapiro imposed deadline was the biggest miscalculation.  

What options are you referring to?
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#28
(2016-12-23, 11:21 AM)RyeRocks Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 09:14 AM)northern1 Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 08:53 AM)RyeRocks Wrote: Toronto made the best offer, but it had an expiry date and was very early on in the process.

Both sides had very different timelines on getting a deal done, and I believe that both were interested in working together but the difference in opinion on *when* the deal should happen was their undoing.

I don't really view it as either side being at fault.  What if Toronto waited until now to try and sign Encarnacion, and got outbid, and all the other options were already signed too?  Encarnacion and his agent obviously thought they could land a bigger contract on the free market, but it never materialized.

Good deal for the Indians to land him for only 3 years.

Perhaps, but if you look at the options that are still out there, you see the Shapiro imposed deadline was the biggest miscalculation.  

What options are you referring to?

Free agents that have yet to sign?? The only one saying this is not on management, is Roger lackey Steve Phillips.

...and a few posters.
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#29
(2016-12-23, 10:59 AM)northern1 Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 10:35 AM)Andrew Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 10:14 AM)andreroy Wrote: And after the fact, it's too bad the Jays weren't willing to be flexible and re-trenched their position because they undoubtedly are a worse baseball team at the moment. And with a fizzling FA market and limited trade options, I cannot see them getting better.

I still argue they should have signed him last week and figure out the rest later. He presented good value as he did for the Jays for the last 4 or 5 seasons, and when value like that presents itself to you, you damn well better try your best to make the deal.

The flaw in that thinking though is that even had the Jays re-engaged EE there is nothing saying he would have signed that deal either. He very well might have just used that new offer from the Jays to drive up his value with other teams and ignite the bidding war that he and his agent wanted (and the Jays wanted to avoid).

And so how would that impact the Jays in a negative way ?? For arguments sake, the bidding tops out at 3 years, 60M, what he signed for. Do you not think this is great value today for a player like EE ?? If it came down to the Jays or the Indians, I think we know where he plays. Management F'd this up any way you look at it. If the Indians had to pay more for his services, I don't see the downside for the Jays...

At this point they'd have very few options left.  You can certainly argue they didn't wait long enough, but they had to do what they felt was in the best interest of the team.

As Shady pointed out, things can move very quickly in free agency.

Andrew is right - we're assuming Encarnacion wanted to sign based on what his agent has been telling us.  We don't really know that though.  It could've just been a tactic to drive up his price.

The argument keeps being made that Encarnacion wanted to test free agency after finally getting an opportunity.  That's fine.  But then we can't really assume he was eager to return to Toronto either.

I don't think David Ortiz ever tested free agency after joining Boston, arguably signing contracts below what he could've gotten on the open market. 

The Jays made an excellent offer - if he really wanted to stay, he had the perfect opportunity to do so.

Ultimately it's disappointing he's no longer with the team when they had the money to sign him.  Ownership made the money available and the Jays made the best offer he got - and now he's with a team that was one win away from winning the World Series.

I'd almost rather see the Jays aggressively rebuild at this point.
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#30
Yes, which free agents are you referring to, northern?
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#31
In a market filled with 1B/DH types the Jays chose to go mediocre early. They had no reason to because there were so many options available. EE was the high end for the type, but there were plenty of Morales level options. What reason did they have to rush to sign Morales and to overpay on him as well?
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#32
(2016-12-23, 11:45 AM)dmc23 Wrote: In a market filled with 1B/DH types the Jays chose to go mediocre early. They had no reason to because there were so many options available. EE was the high end for the type, but there were plenty of Morales level options. What reason did they have to rush to sign Morales and to overpay on him as well?

That's what bothers me the most about this.  The Jays should've been more patient.
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#33
You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

In my opinion. Edwin was the guy they had to sign, and they failed. He was available, and he affordable.

Management messed this up, whether you want to believe it or not.
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#34
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

In my opinion. Edwin was the guy they had to sign, and they failed. He was available, and he affordable.

Management messed this up, whether you want to believe it or not.

Who?

Trumbo?
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#35
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

That is not how discussions work. You made claim. Its on you to back it up.
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#36
(2016-12-23, 11:45 AM)dmc23 Wrote: In a market filled with 1B/DH types the Jays chose to go mediocre early. They had no reason to because there were so many options available. 

That is not really true. Yes there were a lot of options but Pearce was probably the best of the bunch. He was a 2 win player last year in only like half a season and has always been an above avg hitter. Had the jays waited he almost certainly would have signed elsewhere and they would be forced to go after a lesser player.
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#37
Brandon Moss? Chris Carter? Logan Morrison? Adam Lind?

The free agent market is not exactly teeming with upside from the 1B position.
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#38
(2016-12-23, 12:11 AM)Sportking Wrote: Both sides are to blame here and even though the Jays offered the best deal that still doesn't mean they had true intention to sign him.

They had to know he would have never taken that deal once free agency opened. They should have offered that deal in spring training and if they did he would likely be resigned.

I just hope they re invest the money in the bullpen and on Bautista. They really don't have much choice if they hope to win next year.

Not so sure.
In the end, he wanted the big $s and long term and just because he said that he wanted to remain with the Jays, doesn't mean this was true.
I like EE and really hoped that he would remain with the Jays, but he trusted his greedy and incompetent agent and because of this he had to settle for less.
As good a hitter as EE is, his actions proved that he is like the rest and puts money ahead of any loyalties he has for his team.
The Jays will survive without him and will just have to find ways to win without waiting for the big HR.
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#39
(2016-12-23, 12:01 PM)Unreal Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

In my opinion. Edwin was the guy they had to sign, and they failed. He was available, and he affordable.

Management messed this up, whether you want to believe it or not.

Who?

Trumbo?

 Trumbo may be one. Like I said, EE was at the top of the class, he was available, and as it turns out, affordable. Like another poster stated...they settled for mediocre.

Similar to taking Happ, and leaving Price. This last year, it worked out....most it does not. I have no faith in this management team...they ave given me no reason to change with this effort.

I hope I am wrong. Some think that if you criticize, you're not a fan. I can assure you, it's not true.
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#40
(2016-12-23, 12:44 PM)Andrew Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

That is not how discussions work. You made claim. Its on you to back it up.

Had no idea there were "rules". This is an opinion, as is yours. Your arrogance is unlikely to change my opinion.
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