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Encarnacion to the Tribe
#61
(2016-12-23, 02:18 PM)andreroy Wrote: I think what happened here was that you have two arrogant dbags (Shapiro and Kinzer) who had a fair and lucrative deal in front of them that just had to be negotiated. But because they think they are so ***** smart, neither was interested in actually negotiating something fair they wanted to play games, meaning they were only going to make a deal on their respective terms.

I'm not sure where you are getting any of this from.  The Jays made a very competitive, fair offer and EE (according to the score) asked for nearly 25% more money (4 years/100 million).  Not surprisingly the Jays said "no thanks" and moved on to the next available option.

How is that at all unreasonable of the Jays or Shapiro?
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#62
(2016-12-23, 01:37 PM)northern1 Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 01:24 PM)HIGGINSFAN Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

In my opinion. Edwin was the guy they had to sign, and they failed. He was available, and he affordable.

Management messed this up, whether you want to believe it or not.

I disagree.
Just because EE and his agent said that he wanted to stay in Toronto doesn't mean that it's true.
Refusing a 4 year and $20M/yr. offer leads me to believe that maybe he wasn't fully committed to staying with the Jays.

You're right...that may or may not be true....because of the timing of the offer, I don't blame EE for turning it down. However, once they panicked, and sighed Morales and Pearce, the option was still there to look at issuing another offer. For what he signed for, you can't tell me the Jays are better team today than they were at the end of last season...

I haven't seen or heard anything that would suggest that they panicked. Whether you agree with their decisions or not, Shapiro and Atkins seem to have been rather calculated and decisive. Nothing wrong with that.
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#63
(2016-12-23, 12:01 PM)Unreal Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

In my opinion. Edwin was the guy they had to sign, and they failed. He was available, and he affordable.

Management messed this up, whether you want to believe it or not.

Who?

Trumbo?

(2016-12-23, 01:16 PM)northern1 Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 12:44 PM)Andrew Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

That is not how discussions work. You made claim. Its on you to back it up.

Had no idea there were "rules". This is an opinion, as is yours. Your arrogance is unlikely to change my opinion.

There are generally accepted notions wrt debates like this. If you just blather anything you like and then when you are questioned on it tell people to go look it up, your credibility takes a nosedive, imo.

And you say Edwin was 'affordable', which is a very odd thing to say when the Jays offered him substantially more than what he ended up getting.

Someone effed up here. It wasn't the Jays.

Toughest and most unrealistic fan base in ball.
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#64
Looks like EE turned down more money elsewhere to go to Cleveland

http://www.tsn.ca/agent-encarnacion-turn...s-1.637760

Seems more and more that this is a case where he did not want to stay in Toronto. The higher tax rate does play a part, but ultimately successful teams in all sports have players who WANT to be there, and it looks like Edwin only wanted to be here at a price management didn't want to pay.

Serious question, if we signed him for 4 years / $100 million, would people be happy, or would there be some more criticism of the management?
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#65
Some people always find something to criticize. Shapiro was doomed from day 1 here for some reason. I've given up trying to make sense of it lol.
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#66
(2016-12-23, 04:24 PM)shadylane Wrote: Some people always find something to criticize. Shapiro was doomed from day 1 here for some reason. I've given up trying to make sense of it lol.

I agree.
IMO, Shapiro came here and inherited a somewhat difficult situation.
The previous management, AA, whom I liked left the Jays in a bit of a mess.
AA traded away several of the Jays top prospects to make a run to the World Series and it was exciting,  but it was also a big gamble.
I realize that he saw an opportunity and had to take it.  As a fan, I have no problem with that, but I realize that now the Jays have to build up their farm system and try to be competitive at the same time.
I would have liked to see EE remain a Jay, but not at a $25m/year contract.  I also like the fact that they didn't give Price the big contract he was asking for last year and instead used the money to sign Happ. 
This was a tough decision but it was a good decision and the Jays got good value for their money.
It's difficult to make it to the World Series and even tougher to win, so many things have to go right.
I trust Shapiro and his team will field a competitive team and build up the farm system without over paying for Free Agents who think they are worth more than they are.
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#67
(2016-12-23, 01:01 PM)Andrew Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:45 AM)dmc23 Wrote: In a market filled with 1B/DH types the Jays chose to go mediocre early. They had no reason to because there were so many options available. 

That is not really true. Yes there were a lot of options but Pearce was probably the best of the bunch. He was a 2 win player last year in only like half a season and has always been an above avg hitter. Had the jays waited he almost certainly would have signed elsewhere and they would be forced to go after a lesser player.

Wasn't talking about Pearce(who they didn't sign until December) I'm talking about Morales. Pearce is a versatile player and a smart move by the Jays. Morales is the guy who pretty much ended any chance of EE returning and was a dumb overpay.
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#68
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

In my opinion. Edwin was the guy they had to sign, and they failed. He was available, and he affordable.

Management messed this up, whether you want to believe it or not.

Dude, this is what you said:  "Perhaps, but if you look at the options that are still out there, you see the Shapiro imposed deadline was the biggest miscalculation."

You're saying there are options that make it a miscalculation.  What options?  Who, specifically?  This is your statement, not mine.  Can you explain it?
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#69
(2016-12-23, 05:49 PM)dmc23 Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 01:01 PM)Andrew Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:45 AM)dmc23 Wrote: In a market filled with 1B/DH types the Jays chose to go mediocre early. They had no reason to because there were so many options available. 

That is not really true. Yes there were a lot of options but Pearce was probably the best of the bunch. He was a 2 win player last year in only like half a season and has always been an above avg hitter. Had the jays waited he almost certainly would have signed elsewhere and they would be forced to go after a lesser player.

Wasn't talking about Pearce(who they didn't sign until December) I'm talking about Morales. Pearce is a versatile player and a smart move by the Jays. Morales is the guy who pretty much ended any chance of EE returning and was a dumb overpay.

Time will tell. I think Morales is going to hit 30+ homers and be a good bat in their lineup. For just $11M a season I think it could end up being money well spent.
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#70
(2016-12-23, 05:55 PM)RyeRocks Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

In my opinion. Edwin was the guy they had to sign, and they failed. He was available, and he affordable.

Management messed this up, whether you want to believe it or not.

Dude, this is what you said:  "Perhaps, but if you look at the options that are still out there, you see the Shapiro imposed deadline was the biggest miscalculation."

You're saying there are options that make it a miscalculation.  What options?  Who, specifically?  This is your statement, not mine.  Can you explain it?

I like Edwin, Bautista, Trombo, Crisp, Napoli and Holaday (although not sure if he was still avail. at the time)

The top three would have been an upgrade on Morales, IMO.

Again, not that Morales is a bad, or weak player. Management, IMO, handled this poorly, once their 4/80 offer was turned down, they moved on. Their prerogative, but today, they Jays are not as good a team as they could be.
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#71
That's what GMs do when their offers are turned down though. They look towards players who do want to sign with them.

I guess I'm not understanding how long fans wanted them to wait. What would've been a reasonable timeframe?
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#72
It's Rosie DiManno so feel free to skip it if you don't feel like setting your face on fire.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/...manno.html

The interesting bit is this: The Blue Jays' initial offer could've potentially reached $100M with vesting options and the offer "was still on the table after Toronto inked Morales".
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#73
(2016-12-23, 06:37 PM)northern1 Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 05:55 PM)RyeRocks Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

In my opinion. Edwin was the guy they had to sign, and they failed. He was available, and he affordable.

Management messed this up, whether you want to believe it or not.

Dude, this is what you said:  "Perhaps, but if you look at the options that are still out there, you see the Shapiro imposed deadline was the biggest miscalculation."

You're saying there are options that make it a miscalculation.  What options?  Who, specifically?  This is your statement, not mine.  Can you explain it?

I like Edwin, Bautista, Trombo, Crisp, Napoli and Holaday (although not sure if he was still avail. at the time)

The top three would have been an upgrade on Morales, IMO.

Again, not that Morales is a bad, or weak player. Management, IMO, handled this poorly, once their 4/80 offer was turned down, they moved on. Their prerogative, but today, they Jays are not as good a team as they could be.

Edwin doesn't count because we were talking about who else could have been signed in the situation of being outbid for edwin.

All the other guys have roughly the same WAR as Morales (or less), and most are 3 years older than him and will end up costing more.  We'll see how it shakes out, but thats not a very convincing argument.  Holliday and Crisp are pretty much on the verge of retirement and usefulness in huge decline.

Point is, there is no awesome alternative out there.
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#74
(2016-12-23, 07:47 PM)shadylane Wrote: It's Rosie DiManno so feel free to skip it if you don't feel like setting your face on fire.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/...manno.html

The interesting bit is this: The Blue Jays' initial offer could've potentially reached $100M with vesting options and the offer "was still on the table after Toronto inked Morales".

All of a sudden this is coming out now. Or damage control released by the team to the media to save face. 

Maybe they did offer it and Edwin had no intention of coming back. 

Regardless the Jays have a big hole in their lineup and the options to fill this roster are dwindling every day.
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#75
Who really don't knows what Morales could do on a hitter friendly Rogers Centre instead of a pitcher friendly Royals Stadium. I'd be more worried about him staying healthy than who he is replacing. If he stays healthy we might all be praising him next summer.

Donaldson also left a pitcher friendly park and has done quite well.
I have sex daily. I mean dyslexia.
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#76
(2016-12-23, 07:54 PM)RyeRocks Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 06:37 PM)northern1 Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 05:55 PM)RyeRocks Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

In my opinion. Edwin was the guy they had to sign, and they failed. He was available, and he affordable.

Management messed this up, whether you want to believe it or not.

Dude, this is what you said:  "Perhaps, but if you look at the options that are still out there, you see the Shapiro imposed deadline was the biggest miscalculation."

You're saying there are options that make it a miscalculation.  What options?  Who, specifically?  This is your statement, not mine.  Can you explain it?

I like Edwin, Bautista, Trombo, Crisp, Napoli and Holaday (although not sure if he was still avail. at the time)

The top three would have been an upgrade on Morales, IMO.

Again, not that Morales is a bad, or weak player. Management, IMO, handled this poorly, once their 4/80 offer was turned down, they moved on. Their prerogative, but today, they Jays are not as good a team as they could be.

Edwin doesn't count because we were talking about who else could have been signed in the situation of being outbid for edwin.

All the other guys have roughly the same WAR as Morales (or less), and most are 3 years older than him and will end up costing more.  We'll see how it shakes out, but thats not a very convincing argument.  Holliday and Crisp are pretty much on the verge of retirement and usefulness in huge decline.

Point is, there is no awesome alternative out there.

Good point...scratch Edwin. Poorly worded statement by me. My point would be, if handled with some patience and tact, there would be no need for a replacement.

I wasn't looking for an argument...just expressing an opinion.

I hope all Jays fans don't look back on this and say...if only.

Watching Edwin over the last few years, my bet is we will.
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#77
If you can bear with me for a sec, I'll repeat something I was alluding to way back in the thread, that imo is a very realistic possibility.

Lets say they don't sign Pearce and Moralys because they're gunning for Edwin - but at the same time are not willing to write him a blank cheque. A few months go by and Pearce and Moralys both sign elsewhere while Edwin plays the field. Then because the jays are in on the process, a bidding war develops and the Indians are willing to shell out more for Edwin than the Jays are. Or maybe Edwin is actually looking to move on and just wants the jays involved to help him get a bigger contract.

If that came to be that the jays waited for edwin to sign with them, and didn't get him, and didn't get the other guys they ended up signing, the picking would be very slim right now, or walking into an ill-advised contract. Seems they were open for criticism no matter how this played out.
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#78
And that scenario is very possible. As is the theory that EE was not truthful that he wanted to play for the Jays. As is the theory that the Jays really never wanted him back...they offered, what, 17M qualifying offer. Yes the 4 x 20M was big, larger than he ended up getting, but still far less than he was asking...so were they serious?? It's all speculation unless you are privy to inside info...I just know, that for 60M over 3 years, I believe that is good value for him, in this organization. I do not like, or trust this management team. I like and trust the owners even less.

The Jays are not as good a team right now as they were, IMO. That's really all I am concerned with.
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#79
(2016-12-23, 08:43 PM)northern1 Wrote: And that scenario is very possible. As is the theory that EE was not truthful that he wanted to play for the Jays. As is the theory that the Jays really never wanted him back...they offered, what, 17M qualifying offer. Yes the 4 x 20M was big, larger than he ended up getting, but still far less than he was asking...so were they serious?? It's all speculation unless you are privy to inside info...I just know, that for 60M over 3 years, I believe that is good value for him, in this organization. I do not like, or trust this management team. I like and trust the owners even less.

The Jays are not as good a team right now as they were, IMO. That's really all I am concerned with.

I couldn't agree more!! 

I think all those scenarios are possible and simply blindly believing what Rogers is selling is naive.  Shapiro/Atkins cause their own issues imo when it comes to trusting them because they both talk in circles. 

That said I do believe if Morales can stay healthy and its a big IF right now....He will mash at RC. Not sure what his career numbers are there but if I recall they are pretty good.
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#80
Guys, you don't offer $80M (or $100M) if you're not serious about bringing the player back.

Remember in 2005 when Carlos Delgado signed with the Marlins for 4 years and $52M? Ricciardi's only offer was $12M for 2 years. THAT is a lowball "we really don't want you back" type of offer.

It always stinks when a franchise icon moves on but I don't think we need to justify it by turning the front office into the villain.
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