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Encarnacion to the Tribe
(2016-12-26, 08:06 PM)thebest41587 Wrote:
(2016-12-26, 08:03 PM)shadylane Wrote: You're advocating for trading the player who literally and single-handedly punched the Jays' ticket to the ALDS. I'll be close-minded and take the postseason appearance, thanks.

With an aging core and fading competitive window, EE's presence in the lineup was far more likely to provide better value than any realistic prospect haul they could've gotten. Asset management doesn't always mean flipping the pending free agent for futures.

And again I'll say, at no time have I ever said to trade him for prospects. You're not reading to understand, you're reading to respond apparently.

You referenced the New York and Boston trade deadline moves the past couple years that involved prospects coming back. You also specifically said "long term" as a possibility:

"It's not dumb to explore acquiring assets to improve your team, for long term or short term"

I'm responding to what you actually wrote.

As a general philosophy I think most fans would agree with what you're saying - players are assets and a front office should get as much value out of them as they can, while they can, whichever way they can. But saying they should've spent their time pursuing a trade that realistically had no chance of being completed makes no sense to me.
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(2016-12-27, 12:04 PM)Unreal Wrote:
(2016-12-27, 08:59 AM)thebest41587 Wrote:
(2016-12-27, 07:35 AM)Harrison219 Wrote: Trading Edwin at deadline makes zero sense. The only teams that would be interested are going to be playoffs teams which are directly in competition with the Blue Jays.

And those contender looking to add Edwin will offer up prospects not MLB players who are already contributing.

Either way you cut it, it makes zero sense.
It makes tons of sense for the Jays. Arguing otherwise is pretty silly.
What you guys keep focusing on, is how likely it is to happen, which I've never argued. My argument is despite being unlikely, they should've spent time pursuing it anyways, just in case they get lucky and someone does make an offer that suited there needs.

You might as well be arguing the Jays need their asset management questioned because they didn't try trading Ryan Goins for Mike Trout.  I wonder if they tried making a deal for Bryce Harper - perhaps Dalton Pompey would've gotten it done?

At the very least they should've traded Smoak to the Cubs for Anthony Rizzo.  Then they could've flipped Encarnacion to the Mets for Cespedes and Syndergaard. 

They're not doing they're jobs if they don't try!  I'm starting to wonder what they do all day...

Make fun all you want, but a perfect example of someone getting moved at a time where no one saw it coming, is the guy that's been playing 3rd base for the Jays the last 2 years.
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(2016-12-27, 12:19 PM)shadylane Wrote:
(2016-12-26, 08:06 PM)thebest41587 Wrote:
(2016-12-26, 08:03 PM)shadylane Wrote: You're advocating for trading the player who literally and single-handedly punched the Jays' ticket to the ALDS. I'll be close-minded and take the postseason appearance, thanks.

With an aging core and fading competitive window, EE's presence in the lineup was far more likely to provide better value than any realistic prospect haul they could've gotten. Asset management doesn't always mean flipping the pending free agent for futures.

And again I'll say, at no time have I ever said to trade him for prospects. You're not reading to understand, you're reading to respond apparently.

You referenced the New York and Boston trade deadline moves the past couple years that involved prospects coming back. You also specifically said "long term" as a possibility:

"It's not dumb to explore acquiring assets to improve your team, for long term or short term"

I'm responding to what you actually wrote.

As a general philosophy I think most fans would agree with what you're saying - players are assets and a front office should get as much value out of them as they can, while they can, whichever way they can. But saying they should've spent their time pursuing a trade that realistically had no chance of being completed makes no sense to me.

They do it all the time though, it's getting a gauge on what the market is. I'm sure it happens several times throughout the season where inquiries are made, with no legitimate expectation of getting a deal done, but just to see what they think the players are worth. Maybe they have a similar player on there own roster, and don't know what to ask for. Lots of reasons to gather information this way.
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I have question for anyone or everyone?

Hypothetically speaking, if in the run of a season, a team acquired, let's say, 50 prospects either via the draft or in trades, how many would, barring injury would make it to the major leagues for longer than 10-12 seasons in the major league level?

I look at players like Romero, the Freak, or even Pompey and others who have more than a B career. Just wondering as some media types and GM,s make a really big deal,out of prospects, mostly at the A level.
GO LEAFS GO!!
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The vast majority of prospects end up as busts. I think it's something like 3 out of every 4 pitchers and 2 out of every 3 position players listed on Baseball America's previous top 100 lists have accumulated 1.5 career WAR or less.

Barring injury though? I have no idea. Arm injuries are obviously a big reason why so many pitchers don't make it.

Romero is a great example of a player who does make it and looks like he's having a promising career only to see it disappear suddenly.
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(2016-12-27, 01:58 PM)thebest41587 Wrote: Make fun all you want, but a perfect example of someone getting moved at a time where no one saw it coming, is the guy that's been playing 3rd base for the Jays the last 2 years.

Apples and orangutans.

OAKLAND, Calif. -- All-Star third baseman Josh Donaldson is the latest Oakland Athletics star traded away in a rebuilding effort.

General manager Billy Beane looked at the large deficit by which his Athletics lost the American League West to the Angels, then evaluated how Oakland barely held off Seattle on the season's final day for the second wild card.


http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/11951...-blue-jays

Your continued insistence that the in the heat of a pennant race Jays management should have explored moving a main piece of their team, one who played a HUGE part in them being in said race, is asinine. It would have been beyond stupid to do such a thing.

It's never been done, and never will be.

Mostly because GM's tend to not wish to be fired and/or lynched.
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chances are...if a deal were made moving EE away...it would have been to another contender...someone the Jays would possibly face in the playoffs.

the Nomar trade, I don't think is a good example....Sox got Cabrera, and Mientkiewicz back...they weren't the tipping point that sent them to the playoffs...and they were both gone after the season was done. Not exactly great "asset management". Also, when the trade was made, they were 8.5 games back. (they fell as far as 10.5 back) The intent was to be a sell off. They had a crazy August run to get them to the wild card...but I would venture to say it was in spite of the trade, not because of it.
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Its very rare a team sells off a star player at the trade deadline when they are in a playoff spot - and even moreso when that team has one playoff appearance in 20+ years
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Call it what you want, make fun, whatever floats your boat, but it doesn't change anything. You get an offer that makes sense, you take it, and your chances go up if you pursue it. No one has argued that, because you can't.


Unless you guys can come up with better reasoning, we're just going in circles.
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(2016-12-27, 05:45 PM)Limestoner Wrote:
(2016-12-27, 01:58 PM)thebest41587 Wrote: Make fun all you want, but a perfect example of someone getting moved at a time where no one saw it coming, is the guy that's been playing 3rd base for the Jays the last 2 years.

Apples and orangutans.

OAKLAND, Calif. -- All-Star third baseman Josh Donaldson is the latest Oakland Athletics star traded away in a rebuilding effort.

General manager Billy Beane looked at the large deficit by which his Athletics lost the American League West to the Angels, then evaluated how Oakland barely held off Seattle on the season's final day for the second wild card.


http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/11951...-blue-jays

Your continued insistence that the in the heat of a pennant race Jays management should have explored moving a main piece of their team, one who played a HUGE part in them being in said race, is asinine. It would have been beyond stupid to do such a thing.

It's never been done, and never will be.

Mostly because GM's tend to not wish to be fired and/or lynched.

Why? What harm does it do? Note the bolded word.


And quite frankly, you're full of shit to say no one has ever explored trading a star player in a pennant race. It happens every single year when teams put players on trade waivers. Every year we see/hear the casual fan somewhere freak out when it's leaked that's happened because they don't understand the rules and think they've been waived lol.
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(2016-12-27, 05:22 PM)shadylane Wrote: The vast majority of prospects end up as busts. I think it's something like 3 out of every 4 pitchers and 2 out of every 3 position players listed on Baseball America's previous top 100 lists have accumulated 1.5 career WAR or less.

Barring injury though? I have no idea. Arm injuries are obviously a big reason why so many pitchers don't make it.

Romero is a great example of a player who does make it and looks like he's having a promising career only to see it disappear suddenly.

Thanks for the info. I was thinking that but I am really not into baseball as much as you or a few others.
GO LEAFS GO!!
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(2016-12-27, 08:38 PM)thebest41587 Wrote:
(2016-12-27, 05:45 PM)Limestoner Wrote:
(2016-12-27, 01:58 PM)thebest41587 Wrote: Make fun all you want, but a perfect example of someone getting moved at a time where no one saw it coming, is the guy that's been playing 3rd base for the Jays the last 2 years.

Apples and orangutans.

OAKLAND, Calif. -- All-Star third baseman Josh Donaldson is the latest Oakland Athletics star traded away in a rebuilding effort.

General manager Billy Beane looked at the large deficit by which his Athletics lost the American League West to the Angels, then evaluated how Oakland barely held off Seattle on the season's final day for the second wild card.


http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/11951...-blue-jays

Your continued insistence that the in the heat of a pennant race Jays management should have explored moving a main piece of their team, one who played a HUGE part in them being in said race, is asinine. It would have been beyond stupid to do such a thing.

It's never been done, and never will be.

Mostly because GM's tend to not wish to be fired and/or lynched.

Why? What harm does it do? Note the bolded word.


And quite frankly, you're full of shit to say no one has ever explored trading a star player in a pennant race. It happens every single year when teams put players on trade waivers. Every year we see/hear the casual fan somewhere freak out when it's leaked that's happened because they don't understand the rules and think they've been waived lol.

The likelihood that Encarnacion was put on waivers this season was extremely high - pretty much every player is. So that should satisfy your question about whether or not the Jays "explored" Edwin's trade value.

If only we arrived at this understanding sooner, we could've saved 4 pages of pointless discussion. Wink
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^Exactly.

Almost every player in MLB is put on waivers, which is every team's way of exploring their value. If they're claimed and no one is wiling to offer anything of value they simply pull them off waivers.

The Donaldson move seems to be a poor example too - that was an offseason trade by a team looking to rebuild. I don't recall Oakland trying to move him at the 2013 or 2014 trade deadlines when they were in playoff positions (or close).
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