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Is the Cupboard that bare?
#1
What has become of Colin White, he isn't in Bingo, is he still in college?  Also, looking at the roster in Binghamton, wow, not a lot to look at as far as prospects go.  Well let me rephrase, as a Sens fan, I don't see many players whose names I recognize, or that I have heard any buzz about.  Anyone out there with a better IQ on Sens prospects?
Is the cupboard bare right now?
First thing we'd climb a tree, and maybe then we'll talk......
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#2
Murray really did a number on this team's future with his awful drafting and bad trades.

There's no big names in our system outside of Chabot, White and Brown. The first 2 are Murray's picks so They'll probably end up like Puempel, Cowen etc.

Oh shit wait, are we supposed to be blaming Muckler around here still?
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#3
(2016-12-07, 08:18 AM)Boxer Wrote: Murray really did a number on this team's future with his awful drafting and bad trades.

There's no big names in our system outside of Chabot, White and Brown. The first 2 are Murray's picks so They'll probably end up like Puempel, Cowen etc.

Oh shit wait, are we supposed to be blaming Muckler around here still?

LOL... Issue with the team I Melnyk.. Won't invest to make the team a contender but wants to be competitive enough to make the playoffs.

A lot of prospects are either in NCAA, CHL or still in Europe.  Bingo is a weak team as there is a gap between the young players in Ottawa now and players drafted but not in pro hockey...  Missing the 2011 and 20012 draft years where on Lazar and Ceci have made it
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#4
White went back to BC,  has 10 goals 7 assists in 17 GP, so he still seems to be playing well.  

Chabot and Brown are back in junior.  While Murray should certainly face some criticism for his 1st round choices,  his strength is in the later rounds, so we may just need to be patient with development on the guys no one has ever heard of.  

Hoffman, Stone, Dzingel,  Wideman, Boro...all late round Murray picks currently on the team.  Varying degrees of talent, but some of those guys are pretty damn good.
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#5
"White went back to BC, has 10 goals 7 assists in 17 GP, so he still seems to be playing well"
Heis I missed this story, do you have any back story to share. Is he playing in the BC league or in WHL?
First thing we'd climb a tree, and maybe then we'll talk......
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#6
On a related note, why cant we put some real value in the AHL development of players and leave them down there to mature? Particularly d-Men who we rush into the NHL and then crush their sprit. Why is Ceici playing in the NHL. could we not find a defenseman who could be as good as he is now from the FA pool? Ceici is stunted and not performing, man I hope the senators haven't ruined him.
First thing we'd climb a tree, and maybe then we'll talk......
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#7
No story, just looked up his stats...BC= Boston College.  Also seems like he's dealing with a nagging upper body injury that has caused him to miss a few games here and there.  Likely the same injury that kept him out of camp.  Hopefully it's not a long term issue.
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#8
Nick Paul seems to have fallen off a table eh
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#9
They said the other night during the Pittsburgh game that White could be the Captain for Team USA at the Juniors.

Anyways, yes the cupboard is bare in the minor leagues. Bad development and trades will do that to you. Same with injuries.

Easy to blame Melnyk like Nimm does. Did Melnyk tell Murray to trade for those bums out of Dallas in return for Spezza?

Also don't discount the terrible Bobby Ryan trade. Lost a solid depth player, a prospect and a Top 10 pick. I am sure Melnyk told Murray to get that specific player after Alfie left!

They have some good prospects, which will shine at the WJC, but they are all below the AHL-level.
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#10
The Senators are in a precarious position in that they do not have any blue chip prospects in the pipeline. Sure Chabot,White and Brown could end up being great but they also might end up being the second comings of Ceci, Zibanejad and Lazar. If the latter happens this team is going nowhere fast unless Dorion pulls off some miracle trades. For the Sens the future is now; their window is a couple of years and then Anderson is gone and Karlsson is deciding his future.
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#11
Those Ryan and Spezza trades really hurt the team.  I'm scared Dorion just pulled a similar bonehead move with Zbad too.  

And we sort of got lucky with the Ryan trade by the fact it doesn't look like we gave up any future stars in the process.  But it's still a bad trade.
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#12
This is one of those times where blaming Melynk doesn't really make any sense. It doesn't cost anything to draft good talent so that's on Murray and his scouts not on Melnyk. He's not the one making the draft picks and then mishandling the players during their early years like Cowen, Ceci, Lazar, Zibanejad and Puempel. I don't think Melnyk has anything to do with those decisions at all to be honest.
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#13
(2016-12-07, 06:07 PM)Ryu65 Wrote: This is one of those times where blaming Melynk doesn't really make any sense. It doesn't cost anything to draft good talent so that's on Murray and his scouts not on  Melnyk. He's not the one making the draft picks and then mishandling the players during their early years like Cowen, Ceci, Lazar, Zibanejad and Puempel. I don't think Melnyk has anything to do with those decisions at all to be honest.

Sure it does, Melnyk is accountable for every decision made.  He is the one that did not want to do a proper rebuild in 2011 and instead wanted a re-tool as he does not want to miss out of playoff revenue, that is why this team will not be a legitimate contender and always a mid-pack team struggling to make the playoffs.

If it was not the case then he would invest in the team and get the pieces that the team needs, we sit 20th in payroll..  He complains about support but when this team was winning consistently filling the building was not an issue.

Yes Murray has his share of blame as they rushed some of the kids but that was also a result of not having the financial resources to fill the roster with NHL players and allowing the kids to develop..  He was too busy protecting his job than doing his job in not rushing the kids...

Also check out the debt load on the team now, there was no debt when Melnyk bought it out of bankruptcy and now they are fully leveraged as Melnyk used money to finance his other businesses...
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#14
Chabot will be better than Ceci
White will be better than Lazar
Brown, I have no idea

P.S. I know, I know, being better than those guys is not saying much but lets be positive....
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#15
(2016-12-08, 07:55 AM)Nimmsens Wrote:
(2016-12-07, 06:07 PM)Ryu65 Wrote: This is one of those times where blaming Melynk doesn't really make any sense. It doesn't cost anything to draft good talent so that's on Murray and his scouts not on  Melnyk. He's not the one making the draft picks and then mishandling the players during their early years like Cowen, Ceci, Lazar, Zibanejad and Puempel. I don't think Melnyk has anything to do with those decisions at all to be honest.

Sure it does, Melnyk is accountable for every decision made.  He is the one that did not want to do a proper rebuild in 2011 and instead wanted a re-tool as he does not want to miss out of playoff revenue, that is why this team will not be a legitimate contender and always a mid-pack team struggling to make the playoffs.

If it was not the case then he would invest in the team and get the pieces that the team needs, we sit 20th in payroll..  He complains about support but when this team was winning consistently filling the building was not an issue.

Yes Murray has his share of blame as they rushed some of the kids but that was also a result of not having the financial resources to fill the roster with NHL players and allowing the kids to develop..  He was too busy protecting his job than doing his job in not rushing the kids...

Also check out the debt load on the team now, there was no debt when Melnyk bought it out of bankruptcy and now they are fully leveraged as Melnyk used money to finance his other businesses...

I agree with all of this.  Why Melnyk financed the purchase of the team and building in the first place is beyond me, he had the cash at the time.  Now that his other businesses have tanked, he's been using the Sens as a bank account, then bitches and complains that the fans aren't filing that account up enough, even though prices keep soaring and relative cap spending goes down.  

He's a plague on the team.
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#16
(2016-12-08, 08:36 AM)Heisenberg Wrote:
(2016-12-08, 07:55 AM)Nimmsens Wrote:
(2016-12-07, 06:07 PM)Ryu65 Wrote: This is one of those times where blaming Melynk doesn't really make any sense. It doesn't cost anything to draft good talent so that's on Murray and his scouts not on  Melnyk. He's not the one making the draft picks and then mishandling the players during their early years like Cowen, Ceci, Lazar, Zibanejad and Puempel. I don't think Melnyk has anything to do with those decisions at all to be honest.

Sure it does, Melnyk is accountable for every decision made.  He is the one that did not want to do a proper rebuild in 2011 and instead wanted a re-tool as he does not want to miss out of playoff revenue, that is why this team will not be a legitimate contender and always a mid-pack team struggling to make the playoffs.

If it was not the case then he would invest in the team and get the pieces that the team needs, we sit 20th in payroll..  He complains about support but when this team was winning consistently filling the building was not an issue.

Yes Murray has his share of blame as they rushed some of the kids but that was also a result of not having the financial resources to fill the roster with NHL players and allowing the kids to develop..  He was too busy protecting his job than doing his job in not rushing the kids...

Also check out the debt load on the team now, there was no debt when Melnyk bought it out of bankruptcy and now they are fully leveraged as Melnyk used money to finance his other businesses...

I agree with all of this.  Why Melnyk financed the purchase of the team and building in the first place is beyond me, he had the cash at the time.  Now that his other businesses have tanked, he's been using the Sens as a bank account, then bitches and complains that the fans aren't filing that account up enough, even though prices keep soaring and relative cap spending goes down.  

He's a plague on the team.

Guy saves the team from bankruptcy, is able to keep them in town long term and you criticize how he purchased the team and then call him a plague?

Anyways the two of you are even contradicting yourselves and don't even know it.

If he financed the purchase of the team then it could not be "cleared" of debt. It erases Bryden's debts, but there's a new set of debt that has to be paid off. Half of the purchase was financed.

The Citizen outlined why a few years ago why the debt burden skyrockted as it did. It had very little to do with his other businesses. It was because of the 2008 financial crisis. His debt was held with American banks that collapsed. He then had to secure new financing in 2009 which was only for two years, due to the financial crisis and due to the financial crisis these agreements are now filled with penalties until he could find new lenders. Those "new" lenders didn't show up until 2013 because of the lockout because no one is lending to a business that isn't operating. 

The team took a pretty big ass whooping for a long time. It's not mystery why there is a mantra of austerity now.

Indeed, Melnyk was more exposed to the financial consequences of a lockout than outsiders realized. Prior to the expiry of the players’ collective agreement, he had been negotiating a new loan to cover the team’s $130-million debt — held by a syndicate of eight banks including Scotiabank and CIT Group of New York. The loan had expired at year-end 2011 and had been operating under a series of extensions, with appropriate financial penalties applied. Melnyk was being forced to cover millions of dollars in extra debt interest payments until he could line up a new set of lenders.

It was only after the league returned to action, allowing the Senators to generate revenues from ticket sales, that Melnyk finally arranged $150 million in fresh financing — this, according to Davies, the law firm that helped to negotiate the deal. He signed a four-year deal in April 2013 with a pair of U.S. specialty funds. By this time, the mantra of conservative spending was even more firmly embedded in the Senators’ financial culture. This posture would be an important factor in the ill-fated contract negotiations involving the Senators’ long-serving captain, Daniel Alfredsson.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/Unde...story.html

Then on top of all this the CAD is about 2/3 of its value when it was during 2007. I would love to see you two Joe Six Packs navigate these financial landmines.

Like I said, very easy to blame bad ownership. But it's getting to be a lot tougher when the fans don't even buy tickets for a team that is on the verge of pulling ahead into first place.
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#17
(2016-12-08, 07:55 AM)Nimmsens Wrote:
(2016-12-07, 06:07 PM)Ryu65 Wrote: This is one of those times where blaming Melynk doesn't really make any sense. It doesn't cost anything to draft good talent so that's on Murray and his scouts not on  Melnyk. He's not the one making the draft picks and then mishandling the players during their early years like Cowen, Ceci, Lazar, Zibanejad and Puempel. I don't think Melnyk has anything to do with those decisions at all to be honest.


Yes Murray has his share of blame as they rushed some of the kids but that was also a result of not having the financial resources to fill the roster with NHL players and allowing the kids to develop..  He was too busy protecting his job than doing his job in not rushing the kids...

Baloney.

What has happened this year? The cupboard was pretty bare - Dzingel was the only guy ready to be a full time NHLer outta Bingo, so Dorion went out and acquired Kelly and Pyatt to fill in the gaps on the bottom six.

If Lazar, Ceci, et al aren't ready it's cheaper to have them stay in the juniors - where you don't have to pay them - and bring in guys at 500K-750K who fulfill those bottom six roles for one or two years at a time. Since Lazar and Ceci are first round picks their ELCs are valued at $1M per plus bonuses.

And as we have seen, having a 18 or 19 year old Curtis Lazar play on the fourth line gets you less than having Kelly or Pyatt there.

That is bad development and that has nothing to do with the budget placed on the team.

Murray deserves credit for trading for Methot, Anderson and Turris, drafting Karlsson, and finding two talented players and developing them into well-rounded NHL players in Stone and Hoffman. It is no coincidence that this is the core of a pretty good team. But the core is at an age where they have to "win now" and there just isn't enough talent to win a championship. The Bobby Ryan trade is probably the biggest reason why they will never get over the hump.
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#18
So basically you are saying we need(ed) an owner with deeper pockets.  No shit sherlock.  

My criticism still stands.  He's spent money unwisely on more than one occasion,  and if you don't think his other businesses decline and his divorce didn't have a huge impact on this teams ability to operate, you're out to lunch.  He He certainly faced some challenges out of his control, but that's poor risk management on his debts no doubt as well.
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#19
(2016-12-07, 06:07 PM)Ryu65 Wrote: This is one of those times where blaming Melynk doesn't really make any sense. It doesn't cost anything to draft good talent so that's on Murray and his scouts not on Melnyk. He's not the one making the draft picks and then mishandling the players during their early years like Cowen, Ceci, Lazar, Zibanejad and Puempel. I don't think Melnyk has anything to do with those decisions at all to be honest.

It actually does take a significant investment to put together a good scouting department. There's a ton of time and work that goes into evaluation and preparation for the draft.

How does the Sens scouting department compare to others around the league? I have no idea. Is it comparable or is it run on a shoestring budget? Was there much turnover of staff under Murray? It seems to me the one area of strength the Sens have had is identifying goalie talent.
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#20
(2016-12-08, 01:37 PM)Heisenberg Wrote: So basically you are saying we need(ed) an owner with deeper pockets.  No shit sherlock.  

My criticism still stands.  He's spent money unwisely on more than one occasion,  and if you don't think his other businesses decline and his divorce didn't have a huge impact on this teams ability to operate, you're out to lunch.  He He certainly faced some challenges out of his control, but that's poor risk management on his debts no doubt as well.

Well all it means he has less cash to flash.

But name me a NHL owners that use their own money to prop up the team on a year-to-year basis to operate a team. I can only think of Illitch and Pegula. One of them whose era is about to crash and burn (and would have a lot earlier if not for good scouting) and the other still hasn't put out a half decent hockey team. 

Unless you believe he's done something nefarious or corrupting surrounding the team's finances, of which there is zero evidence, you are living in an fantasy land. Who are you to tell people how to spend their money?

You people can't say you won't support the team and blame him him for not spending. He can't spend because you're not spending.
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