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Best American Hockey player right now?
(2018-07-11, 08:47 PM)TheOilerFan83 Wrote:
(2018-07-11, 08:10 PM)Pouzar Wrote: Seems pretty dis-ingenuousness for the Oilers fans that argue(d) that McDavid should have won the Calder despite missing so many games and having a lower point total and then point to Matthews lower point totals as an indicator of regression ignore a big uptick in per game numbers.

Matthews is an elite talent, his name is right up there with the best US players in the game and will likely be the best US forward within a short time frame.   The Leafs look to be a very good team this year.  The jury is out on if they will be a great team and have playoff success - only time will tell but its not unreasonable to think they should compete with the best in the league and a playoff run of at least a few rounds is possible if not probable.

Most Oiler fans I have heard comment on the issue believe he was the best rookie but understand why he didn’t win the Calder. 

Like it or not, longevity matters.

The difference in response between the Leafs fans and Oiler fans on this topic is obvious. 

NS tries to agitate Oiler fans by saying Crosby is better. The response by Oiler fans? Fair comment. An argument can be made. 

Fans try to discuss why Matthews is not the best American player in the NHL. The response by Leaf fans? YOU ARE JUST JEALOUS YOU DON'T HAVE AUSTON THE MAGNIFICENT LEADING THE OILERS YOU ARE ALL HATERS AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW GREAT WE ARE JONATHAN TAVARES USED TO MASTURBATE IN A SET OF LEAFS SHEETS YOU JEALOUS ZEALOTS

To top it off, we have Vancouver fan in the corner begging for out attention.



I'm not entirely sure any Leaf fans posted anything about JT and what he did with his Leaf sheets and I don't recall any of them referring to AM as, Auston the Magnificent.


I've never been there before, but once I went there twice...
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(2018-07-12, 08:55 AM)ZappaScores Wrote: Sorry, what’s the actual fact? The Leafs are bringing Matthews along slowly, and I think that’s the smart thing to do. BTW I leave near and work in Toronto. I’m well versed in how this displeases the fan base. Matthews is a 1OA pick, with a Calder and 40 goal season under his belt. No one’s disputing he’s good. Really good in fact. But the truth is, he doesn’t belong in the conversation of best American Hockey Player right now. That’s what the threads about. A disappointing playoffs and an injury-filled season were not enough to put him ahead of Kane, Kessel or Wheeler at forward or like CTS mentioned, Quick in goal and Jones on defence. He hasn’t earned it yet. He’s still learning the game. He may never be considered the best American. That’s not hating. That’s taking into account his injury history. From the broken leg in 2013 to last year’s  shortened season. Remember what injuries did to the leaf’s other 1OA? It also takes into account that the US has a lot of young, top end talent, like Eichel and Jones. If Matthews was anywhere close to being the best American, I really doubt Babcock would be afraid to fully utilize him.

The facts were the actual statistical evidence I was using to support my opinion and frame my position, whereas your replies were almost pure sarcasm and opinion so it was hard to take seriously.

I've never stated that Matthews IS the best American born player right now, never. I'm actually on record stating the opposite...

What I find to be totally bizarre is that if you're a Leafs fan making an argument that he's among the best, you're immediately some insane Leaf stroker.
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Injury-filled season is a bit much - he had one injury that cost him 20 games.
Humboldt Broncos SJHL April 6, 2018
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(2018-07-12, 10:36 AM)lewis94 Wrote:
(2018-07-11, 06:41 PM)ZappaScores Wrote: Lewis, his point was in reference to Leafs fans being "fully aware" of their ineptitude. They aren't. They thought Schenn belonged in the same conversation as PK and Karlsson. They thought Pogge would be better than Price. Or that Sundin is belongs in the HOF. I don't think you'd ever accuse a Leaf fan of being self-aware. This is a good squad though.

Oh sure, some have made outlandish statements, including in this forum. Schenn did look promising for a while and was considered a top prospect - though even at that time he was definitely a step behind them.

The people comparing Pogge favourably to Price were just stupid. Sundin does belong in the HOF.

But in more recent years when the team was terrible, we were all fully aware and embraced the rebuild plan. And now we're aware we have a team that can contend - and possibly be a favourite once they address their blueline.

In the last 10 years, the Leafs have had finishes of 22nd, 23rd, 26th, 27th, 24th, 29th and a DFL. I think it has more to do with not having anything to brag about than a sudden pragmatic view on their place in the league. 

Toronto replaces JVR's 36 goals with Tavares (an upgrade to be sure), but it did nothing to address the D and all I'm hearing is the best defence is a great offence. 

Thoughtful fans like yourself are out-numbered with this fanbase, just like always.
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(2018-07-12, 11:16 AM)lewis94 Wrote: Injury-filled season is a bit much - he had one injury that cost him 20 games.


Out of 2 and he suffered some pretty significant in his junior days. It's not a stretch.
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(2018-07-12, 11:18 AM)ZappaScores Wrote:
(2018-07-12, 10:36 AM)lewis94 Wrote:
(2018-07-11, 06:41 PM)ZappaScores Wrote: Lewis, his point was in reference to Leafs fans being "fully aware" of their ineptitude. They aren't. They thought Schenn belonged in the same conversation as PK and Karlsson. They thought Pogge would be better than Price. Or that Sundin is belongs in the HOF. I don't think you'd ever accuse a Leaf fan of being self-aware. This is a good squad though.

Oh sure, some have made outlandish statements, including in this forum. Schenn did look promising for a while and was considered a top prospect - though even at that time he was definitely a step behind them.

The people comparing Pogge favourably to Price were just stupid. Sundin does belong in the HOF.

But in more recent years when the team was terrible, we were all fully aware and embraced the rebuild plan. And now we're aware we have a team that can contend - and possibly be a favourite once they address their blueline.

In the last 10 years, the Leafs have had finishes of 22nd, 23rd, 26th, 27th, 24th, 29th and a DFL. I think it has more to do with not having anything to brag about than a sudden pragmatic view on their place in the league. 

Toronto replaces JVR's 36 goals with Tavares (an upgrade to be sure), but it did nothing to address the D and all I'm hearing is the best defence is a great offence. 

Thoughtful fans like yourself are out-numbered with this fanbase, just like always.

Their D isn't great, but it isn't as terrible as most would have you believe.

12th fewest goals allowed
Allowed fewer goals than Tampa, Washington and Pittsburgh
Allowed approx 5 more goals than San Jose and Vegas

Not exactly the horror show some would frame it as.
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(2018-07-12, 11:14 AM)Stormy Wrote: What I find to be totally bizarre is that if you're a Leafs fan making an argument that he's among the best, you're immediately some insane Leaf stroker.

Look at post #35 - if don't put Matthews at the top or questions his history of injuries, you're bashing him.
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(2018-07-12, 11:28 AM)ZappaScores Wrote:
(2018-07-12, 11:14 AM)Stormy Wrote: What I find to be totally bizarre is that if you're a Leafs fan making an argument that he's among the best, you're immediately some insane Leaf stroker.

Look at post #35 - if don't put Matthews at the top or questions his history of injuries, you're bashing him.

That's somebody else's opinion, not mine. I'm always willing to engage in a reasonable discussion.
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I know you are, I'm just saying it goes both ways.
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(2018-07-12, 11:33 AM)ZappaScores Wrote: I know you are,  I'm just saying it goes both ways.

No doubt... anyway, the fact that the Leafs even have players worth discussing in these threads is incredibly refreshing.
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(2018-07-12, 08:55 AM)ZappaScores Wrote: Sorry, what’s the actual fact? The Leafs are bringing Matthews along slowly, and I think that’s the smart thing to do. BTW I leave near and work in Toronto. I’m well versed in how this displeases the fan base. Matthews is a 1OA pick, with a Calder and 40 goal season under his belt. No one’s disputing he’s good. Really good in fact. But the truth is, he doesn’t belong in the conversation of best American Hockey Player right now. That’s what the threads about. A disappointing playoffs and an injury-filled season were not enough to put him ahead of Kane, Kessel or Wheeler at forward or like CTS mentioned, Quick in goal and Jones on defence. He hasn’t earned it yet. He’s still learning the game. He may never be considered the best American. That’s not hating. That’s taking into account his injury history. From the broken leg in 2013 to last year’s  shortened season. Remember what injuries did to the leaf’s other 1OA? It also takes into account that the US has a lot of young, top end talent, like Eichel and Jones. If Matthews was anywhere close to being the best American, I really doubt Babcock would be afraid to fully utilize him.

FWIW, I agree with everything you say here. Not all Leafs fans are going to state he's the best American player.....or the second best etc. But some will although I think it's more the opposite. We do know what we have in him but I have to admit I'm a tad concerned about the injuries so early in his career. We are extremely happy to have a franchise player though....it's been a while.
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(2018-07-11, 05:49 PM)lewis94 Wrote:
(2018-07-11, 04:46 PM)TheOilerFan83 Wrote:
(2018-07-06, 06:48 PM)Nuclearsun Wrote: So is McDavid not eligible for best Canadian player because the title must go to a veteran player with a longer resume?

Quite a few people out there think Crosby is still the better player and will continue to be until Mcdavid’s collection of hardware and Cup wins starts to resemble Crosby's. 

That’s a fair argument. Oiler fans can counter with the how McDavid has dominated the league the last two years. It’s a legitimate debate. 

This is unlike Matthews, who has done nothing to warrant being considered the best American aside from playing for the Leafs. Which seems to be a factor for some weird reason.

McDavid vs. Crosby is a great argument. I would say Crosby is the better all-round player, while McDavid is a better offensive player.

Matthews is certainly not the best American now, but probably will be in a couple years. Certainly top 5 right now, I'd say.

That's fair. 

Wheeler, Kane, Eichel, Gaudreau, Matthews is in the conversation. 

Someone I'd like to throw in for consideration, the Ghost, and as someone mentioned, a few defenders are missing Suter, Jones, and some goalies Helly, Quick (with his resume how can you not)

I don't think there's an argument right now that Matthews is THE BEST American player, but he's up there, and I don't think it'll be too long before he takes that title, he certainly has the tools.
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(2018-07-12, 11:18 AM)ZappaScores Wrote:
(2018-07-12, 10:36 AM)lewis94 Wrote: Oh sure, some have made outlandish statements, including in this forum. Schenn did look promising for a while and was considered a top prospect - though even at that time he was definitely a step behind them.

The people comparing Pogge favourably to Price were just stupid. Sundin does belong in the HOF.

But in more recent years when the team was terrible, we were all fully aware and embraced the rebuild plan. And now we're aware we have a team that can contend - and possibly be a favourite once they address their blueline.

In the last 10 years, the Leafs have had finishes of 22nd, 23rd, 26th, 27th, 24th, 29th and a DFL. I think it has more to do with not having anything to brag about than a sudden pragmatic view on their place in the league. 

Toronto replaces JVR's 36 goals with Tavares (an upgrade to be sure), but it did nothing to address the D and all I'm hearing is the best defence is a great offence. 

Thoughtful fans like yourself are out-numbered with this fanbase, just like always.

As opposed to years when people said we had the best D in the east, or other nonsense, the last few years we embraced being bad and the reward in the draft.

They definitely need to improve the blueline - I don't think they're done by any means. They won't truly contend until it's addressed.
Humboldt Broncos SJHL April 6, 2018
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