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Change of heart?-REBUILD OF ALL REBUILDS
#1
First off let me say I am wanting to add pieces as I believe team is ready for prime time right now....BUT....there are a few things that keep lurking around the dark corners of my mind and something in my stomach saying this might be the time to undergo the mother of all rebuilds....WHY??? why would any part of me think that given how close we are?

There are a few reasons....
1. Our under 25 roster is extremely good as a base...and that is BEFORE what I am going to throw out there
2. 2020-Alexis Lafreniere-Best Franco prospect since Lecavelier
3. 2019 UFA market-A week ago people were talking that Karlsson would get about 8...not a max deal at 11.5? Hayes just got over 7 million?
4. Our cap space and existing contracts are MASSIVE assets right now...MASSIVE and growing with every stupid signing
5. We already have 10 picks heading into this draft...BEFORE making another move

So....here is the outrageously and soon to be wildly unpopular suggestion.

I am suggest that guys like Shaw, Byron, Danault, Petry, Tatar.....thier value just shot through the roof with those recent signings

Then the real craziness starts....Weber, Price and Gallagher...ALL of these guys are over 25...and yes stars and I am a huge fan but please remember this is the dark part of me thinking this....


What would the value for all of those players be? How many top 10 picks could you get from the past three drafts? how many young stars under 25 (Ghostisbhere, Ehlers types?)

When trading we do not have to worry about overpaying for our market...we acquire long term rights if acquiring picks, guys under contract and young prospects...

NOW....after this mass asset accumulation  what are we left with? TONS OF CAP SPACE...to do what? acquire even more assets.....Elliotte Friedman just wrote an article suggesting this year and next will be cap crunch years and little growth in cap until new US TV deal is signed...

This would be an unprecedented rebuild...one that would cause some serious short term pain...or would it? yes, emotionally it would...BUT...you  could grow an entire NHL organization internally...the only guys over 25(yes,contradicting myself as some homegrown guys over 25 would be gone)

Who would be the vets on the team...who would guide this new group until they were ready for prime time? The answer? the aged out stars who you would  be taking on riding into the sunset that you got paid to take....the guys like Marleau, Corey Perry, these types of guys could be had and you would get paid to take them likely...

Also remember we get one likely get out of jail free card with the amnesty that usually accompanies a new CBA....

With the amount of assets required MB could ensure he gets Lafreniere (is he the best Franco prospect since Lecavelier?) ..and about 8 other studs...


As of right now...before any of this playstation nightmare/fantasy this is our under 25 lineup....


Drouin-Domi-Suzuki
Lehk-Kotkaniemi-Ylonen
Teasdale-Poehling-Ikonen
Vedejmo-Evans-Mccarron
Evans-Stapley-Mcshane

Mete-Juulsen
Romanov-Brook
Harris-Fleury
Leskinen-Olofsson


Primeau
Lindgern
Mcniven


NOW...add this years picks to it? Could you acquire enough picks, prospects, young players like Ehlers or Ghost to make this a 10 year dynasty?

Add in Laferniere and Ehlers and draft a D at 15...then figure we would likely acquire about 8 other first round picks ranging from 2017-22(future picks, prospects, this years picks acquired,etc)


Anyways....I think just having that 25 and under core is stellar enough to add with pieces we have......but have to admit....this idea has been keeping me up at night since Erik Karlsson deal....

MB literally has every option at his disposal....but if he pays 10 miilion for Duchene what does that do to our INTERNAL cap world....what does that do to Gallagher in two years? Domi coming up? Kotkaniemi coming up? the acceleration of guys like  Poehling/Suzuki on the payscale...if you manged the cap internally and went Detroit style back in the day...used one player to set the bar...(for time being highest paid guys would either be buyouts or asset dumps like Perry...but internally would be guys like Drouin/Ehlers type, Domi new deal,etc...)


Anyways....it ain't happening and I have never thought like that before...but that Karlsson deal made me wonder and the Hayes deal has me sick to my stomach....I now fear another lockout down the road.....I could have justified the Habs giving Karlsson that money...but that extra year? that market? what would that deal look like in Montreal dollars? 


Oh well.....thanks for reading if you made it this far...i had to get it out of my system...ok....now back to trying to win this year during the Price/Weber/Gally window!!! Who we gonna overpay?!?!?
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#2
(2019-06-19, 09:06 AM)krob1000 Wrote: First off let me say I am wanting to add pieces as I believe team is ready for prime time right now....BUT....there are a few things that keep lurking around the dark corners of my mind and something in my stomach saying this might be the time to undergo the mother of all rebuilds....WHY??? why would any part of me think that given how close we are?

There are a few reasons....
1. our under 25 roster is extremely good as a base...adn that is BEFORE what I am going to throw out there
2.2020-Alexis Lafreniere
3. 2019 UFA market-A weeka go teams were talking that Karlsson would get about 8...not a max deal at 11.5? Hayes just got over 7 million?
4. Our cap space and existing contracts are MASSIVE assets right now...MASSIVE and growing with every stupid signing
5. We already have 10 picks heading into this draft...BEFORE making another move

So....here is the outrageously and soon to be wildly unpopular suggestion.

I am suggest that guys like Shaw, Byron, Danault, Petry, Tatar.....thier value just shot through the roof with those recent signings

Then the real starts....Weber, Price and Gallagher...ALL of these guys are over 25...and yes stars and I am a huge fan but please remember this is the dark part of me thinking this....


What would the value for all of those players be? How many top 10 picks could you get from the past three drafts? how many young stars under 25 (Ghostisbhere, Ehlers types?)

Whentrading we do not have to worry about overpaying for our market...we acquire long term rights if acquiring picks, guys under contract and young prospects...

NOW....after this mass asset accumulation  what are we left with? TONS OF CAP SPACE...to do what? acquire even more assets.....Elliotte Friedman just wrote an article suggesting this year and next will be cap crunch years and little growth in cap until new US TV deal is signed...

This would be an unprecedented rebuild...one that would cause some serious short term pain...or would it? yes, emotionally it would...BUT...you  could grow an entire NHL organization internally...the only guys over 25(yes,contradicting myself as some homegrown guys over 215 would be gone)

Who would be the vets on the team...who would guide this new group until they were ready for prime time? The answer? the aged out starts who you would  be taking on riding into the sunset that you got paid to take....the guys like Marleau, Corey Perry, these types of guys could be had and you would get paid to take them likely...

Also remember we get one likely get out of jail free card with the amnesty that usually accompanies a new CBA....

With the amount of assets required MB could ensure he gets Lafreniere (is he the best Franco prospect since Lecavelier?) ..and about 8 other studs...


As of right now...before any of this playstation nightmare/fantasy this is our under 25 lineup....


Drouin-Domi-Suzuki
Lehk-Kotkaniemi-Ylonen
Teasdale-Poehling-Ikonen
Vedejmo-Evans-Mccarron
Evans-Stapley-Mcshane

Mete-Juulsen
Romanov-Brook
Harris-Fleury
Leskinen-Olofsson


Primeau
Lindgern
Mcniven


NOW...add this years picks to it? Could you acquire enough picks, prospects, young players like Ehlers or Ghost to make this a 10 year dynasty?

Add in Laferniere and Ehlers and draft a D at 15...then figure we would likely acquire about 8 other first round picks ranging from 2017-22(future picks, prospects, this years picks acquired,etc)


Anyways....I think just having that 25 and under core is stellar enough to add with pieces we have......but have to admit....this idea has been keeping me up at night since Erik Karlsson deal....

MB literally has every option at his disposal....but if he pays 10 miilion for Duchene what does that do to our INTERNAL cap world....what does that do to Gallagher in two years? Domi coming up? Kotkaniemi coming up? the acceleration of guys like  Poiheling/Suzuki ont he payscale...if you manged he cap internally and went Detroit style back int he day...used one player to set the bar...(for time being highest paid guys would either be buyouts or asset dumps like Perry...but internally would be guys like Drouin/Ehlers type, Domi new deal,etc...)


Anyways....it ain't happening and I have never thought like that before...but that Karlsson deal made me wonder and the Hayes deal has me sick to my stomach....I now fear another lockout down the road.....I could have justified the HAbs giving Karlsson that money...but that extra year? that market? what would that deal look like in Montreal dollars? 


Oh well.....thanks for reading if you made it this far...i had to get it out of my system...ok....now back to trying to win this year during the Price/Weber/Gally window!!! Who we gonna overpay?!?!?

I'd say you had a moment of clarity.

Look at the Cup winning Blues.  Heavy hockey, and talented too.  

Current Habs a bad mix of too young and small, and too old and slow.  Needs grit and hands.

With all the points you made, I'd say it's a great time to go for the major rebuild.  Even better would have been a few years ago...lol.
Play not to lose, build around Carey, sell hope, make money.
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#3
(2019-06-19, 09:06 AM)krob1000 Wrote: First off let me say I am wanting to add pieces as I believe team is ready for prime time right now....BUT....there are a few things that keep lurking around the dark corners of my mind and something in my stomach saying this might be the time to undergo the mother of all rebuilds....WHY??? why would any part of me think that given how close we are?

There are a few reasons....
1. Our under 25 roster is extremely good as a base...and that is BEFORE what I am going to throw out there
2. 2020-Alexis Lafreniere-Best Franco prospect since Lecavelier
3. 2019 UFA market-A week ago people were talking that Karlsson would get about 8...not a max deal at 11.5? Hayes just got over 7 million?
4. Our cap space and existing contracts are MASSIVE assets right now...MASSIVE and growing with every stupid signing
5. We already have 10 picks heading into this draft...BEFORE making another move

So....here is the outrageously and soon to be wildly unpopular suggestion.

I am suggest that guys like Shaw, Byron, Danault, Petry, Tatar.....thier value just shot through the roof with those recent signings

Then the real starts....Weber, Price and Gallagher...ALL of these guys are over 25...and yes stars and I am a huge fan but please remember this is the dark part of me thinking this....


What would the value for all of those players be? How many top 10 picks could you get from the past three drafts? how many young stars under 25 (Ghostisbhere, Ehlers types?)

When trading we do not have to worry about overpaying for our market...we acquire long term rights if acquiring picks, guys under contract and young prospects...

NOW....after this mass asset accumulation  what are we left with? TONS OF CAP SPACE...to do what? acquire even more assets.....Elliotte Friedman just wrote an article suggesting this year and next will be cap crunch years and little growth in cap until new US TV deal is signed...

This would be an unprecedented rebuild...one that would cause some serious short term pain...or would it? yes, emotionally it would...BUT...you  could grow an entire NHL organization internally...the only guys over 25(yes,contradicting myself as some homegrown guys over 215 would be gone)

Who would be the vets on the team...who would guide this new group until they were ready for prime time? The answer? the aged out starts who you would  be taking on riding into the sunset that you got paid to take....the guys like Marleau, Corey Perry, these types of guys could be had and you would get paid to take them likely...

Also remember we get one likely get out of jail free card with the amnesty that usually accompanies a new CBA....

With the amount of assets required MB could ensure he gets Lafreniere (is he the best Franco prospect since Lecavelier?) ..and about 8 other studs...


As of right now...before any of this playstation nightmare/fantasy this is our under 25 lineup....


Drouin-Domi-Suzuki
Lehk-Kotkaniemi-Ylonen
Teasdale-Poehling-Ikonen
Vedejmo-Evans-Mccarron
Evans-Stapley-Mcshane

Mete-Juulsen
Romanov-Brook
Harris-Fleury
Leskinen-Olofsson


Primeau
Lindgern
Mcniven


NOW...add this years picks to it? Could you acquire enough picks, prospects, young players like Ehlers or Ghost to make this a 10 year dynasty?

Add in Laferniere and Ehlers and draft a D at 15...then figure we would likely acquire about 8 other first round picks ranging from 2017-22(future picks, prospects, this years picks acquired,etc)


Anyways....I think just having that 25 and under core is stellar enough to add with pieces we have......but have to admit....this idea has been keeping me up at night since Erik Karlsson deal....

MB literally has every option at his disposal....but if he pays 10 miilion for Duchene what does that do to our INTERNAL cap world....what does that do to Gallagher in two years? Domi coming up? Kotkaniemi coming up? the acceleration of guys like  Poehling/Suzuki on the payscale...if you manged he cap internally and went Detroit style back int he day...used one player to set the bar...(for time being highest paid guys would either be buyouts or asset dumps like Perry...but internally would be guys like Drouin/Ehlers type, Domi new deal,etc...)


Anyways....it ain't happening and I have never thought like that before...but that Karlsson deal made me wonder and the Hayes deal has me sick to my stomach....I now fear another lockout down the road.....I could have justified the Habs giving Karlsson that money...but that extra year? that market? what would that deal look like in Montreal dollars? 


Oh well.....thanks for reading if you made it this far...i had to get it out of my system...ok....now back to trying to win this year during the Price/Weber/Gally window!!! Who we gonna overpay?!?!?

How do you propose to get Lafreniere? Unless the Habs have the first round pick of all non-playoff teams they can't guarantee it. Look what happened to Colorado - supposed to pick 2nd and dropped to 4th.

Besides, everyone knows Edmonton will get Lafreniere.
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#4
(2019-06-19, 10:05 AM)myron.selby Wrote:
(2019-06-19, 09:06 AM)krob1000 Wrote: First off let me say I am wanting to add pieces as I believe team is ready for prime time right now....BUT....there are a few things that keep lurking around the dark corners of my mind and something in my stomach saying this might be the time to undergo the mother of all rebuilds....WHY??? why would any part of me think that given how close we are?

There are a few reasons....
1. Our under 25 roster is extremely good as a base...and that is BEFORE what I am going to throw out there
2. 2020-Alexis Lafreniere-Best Franco prospect since Lecavelier
3. 2019 UFA market-A week ago people were talking that Karlsson would get about 8...not a max deal at 11.5? Hayes just got over 7 million?
4. Our cap space and existing contracts are MASSIVE assets right now...MASSIVE and growing with every stupid signing
5. We already have 10 picks heading into this draft...BEFORE making another move

So....here is the outrageously and soon to be wildly unpopular suggestion.

I am suggest that guys like Shaw, Byron, Danault, Petry, Tatar.....thier value just shot through the roof with those recent signings

Then the real starts....Weber, Price and Gallagher...ALL of these guys are over 25...and yes stars and I am a huge fan but please remember this is the dark part of me thinking this....


What would the value for all of those players be? How many top 10 picks could you get from the past three drafts? how many young stars under 25 (Ghostisbhere, Ehlers types?)

When trading we do not have to worry about overpaying for our market...we acquire long term rights if acquiring picks, guys under contract and young prospects...

NOW....after this mass asset accumulation  what are we left with? TONS OF CAP SPACE...to do what? acquire even more assets.....Elliotte Friedman just wrote an article suggesting this year and next will be cap crunch years and little growth in cap until new US TV deal is signed...

This would be an unprecedented rebuild...one that would cause some serious short term pain...or would it? yes, emotionally it would...BUT...you  could grow an entire NHL organization internally...the only guys over 25(yes,contradicting myself as some homegrown guys over 215 would be gone)

Who would be the vets on the team...who would guide this new group until they were ready for prime time? The answer? the aged out starts who you would  be taking on riding into the sunset that you got paid to take....the guys like Marleau, Corey Perry, these types of guys could be had and you would get paid to take them likely...

Also remember we get one likely get out of jail free card with the amnesty that usually accompanies a new CBA....

With the amount of assets required MB could ensure he gets Lafreniere (is he the best Franco prospect since Lecavelier?) ..and about 8 other studs...


As of right now...before any of this playstation nightmare/fantasy this is our under 25 lineup....


Drouin-Domi-Suzuki
Lehk-Kotkaniemi-Ylonen
Teasdale-Poehling-Ikonen
Vedejmo-Evans-Mccarron
Evans-Stapley-Mcshane

Mete-Juulsen
Romanov-Brook
Harris-Fleury
Leskinen-Olofsson


Primeau
Lindgern
Mcniven


NOW...add this years picks to it? Could you acquire enough picks, prospects, young players like Ehlers or Ghost to make this a 10 year dynasty?

Add in Laferniere and Ehlers and draft a D at 15...then figure we would likely acquire about 8 other first round picks ranging from 2017-22(future picks, prospects, this years picks acquired,etc)


Anyways....I think just having that 25 and under core is stellar enough to add with pieces we have......but have to admit....this idea has been keeping me up at night since Erik Karlsson deal....

MB literally has every option at his disposal....but if he pays 10 miilion for Duchene what does that do to our INTERNAL cap world....what does that do to Gallagher in two years? Domi coming up? Kotkaniemi coming up? the acceleration of guys like  Poehling/Suzuki on the payscale...if you manged he cap internally and went Detroit style back int he day...used one player to set the bar...(for time being highest paid guys would either be buyouts or asset dumps like Perry...but internally would be guys like Drouin/Ehlers type, Domi new deal,etc...)


Anyways....it ain't happening and I have never thought like that before...but that Karlsson deal made me wonder and the Hayes deal has me sick to my stomach....I now fear another lockout down the road.....I could have justified the Habs giving Karlsson that money...but that extra year? that market? what would that deal look like in Montreal dollars? 


Oh well.....thanks for reading if you made it this far...i had to get it out of my system...ok....now back to trying to win this year during the Price/Weber/Gally window!!! Who we gonna overpay?!?!?

How do you propose to get Lafreniere? Unless the Habs have the first round pick of all non-playoff teams they can't guarantee it. Look what happened to Colorado - supposed to pick 2nd and dropped to 4th.

Besides, everyone knows Edmonton will get Lafreniere.
We would have enough assets in this made up scenario to make sure we got it...our team would likely be poor so I do not think would be outside the top 5 ....then you trade up if need be......would have assets out the ying yang...and if it did't work? go get Dubois...the one that got away!
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#5
I am not a rebuild fan cause you can not guarantee getting a franchise player. And a rebuild is at least 5-10 yrs, and during that time imagine getting 0 franchise players (as there arent 1 every year to start with). PLUS STL just won the cup without having a top 2 pick etc etc...so many reasons why a rebuild doesnt prove a winner. Look at the Leafs/Winn/Edm. First 2 have solid line up. Winn is in serious cap issue. Leafs may follow. NHL is turning into...pay star RFAs so building thru multiple top 10 picks won't be feasable soon enough.

I even think the word retool is dumb. If your roster isn't a cup contender...you should be retooling it all the time until it is. To me retooling is simply a GM making his team better season after season until they have a roster that can make the playoffs and compete in a deep run.
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#6
(2019-06-19, 10:49 AM)Haba-daba-do Wrote: I am not a rebuild fan cause you can not guarantee getting a franchise player.  And a rebuild is at least 5-10 yrs, and during that time imagine getting 0 franchise players (as there arent 1 every year to start with).  PLUS STL just won the cup without having a top 2 pick etc etc...so many reasons why a rebuild doesnt prove a winner.  Look at the Leafs/Winn/Edm.  First 2 have solid line up.  Winn is in serious cap issue.  Leafs may follow.  NHL is turning into...pay star RFAs so building thru multiple top 10 picks won't be feasable soon enough.

I even think the word retool is dumb.  If your roster isn't a cup contender...you should be retooling it all the time until it is.  To me retooling is simply a GM making his team better season after season until they have a roster that can make the playoffs and compete in a deep run.

Not sure you bothered to read? this is not comparable at all to those teams and not sure where you are getting any of this franchise player, 1 or 2 overall, or comparing to Edm?Tor???...they relied on one player per draft and tanking /....i am not at all suggesting that......and did not have the base the HAbs have in place already with under 25 talent....and not base don superstars...instead actually based on massive depth and stockpiling kids so that every year you can have a new wave of affordable contracts....it would be an decade worht of usable and manageable assets.....
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#7
(2019-06-19, 10:55 AM)krob1000 Wrote:
(2019-06-19, 10:49 AM)Haba-daba-do Wrote: I am not a rebuild fan cause you can not guarantee getting a franchise player.  And a rebuild is at least 5-10 yrs, and during that time imagine getting 0 franchise players (as there arent 1 every year to start with).  PLUS STL just won the cup without having a top 2 pick etc etc...so many reasons why a rebuild doesnt prove a winner.  Look at the Leafs/Winn/Edm.  First 2 have solid line up.  Winn is in serious cap issue.  Leafs may follow.  NHL is turning into...pay star RFAs so building thru multiple top 10 picks won't be feasable soon enough.

I even think the word retool is dumb.  If your roster isn't a cup contender...you should be retooling it all the time until it is.  To me retooling is simply a GM making his team better season after season until they have a roster that can make the playoffs and compete in a deep run.

Not sure you bothered to read? this is not comparable at all to those teams and not sure where you are getting any of this franchise player, 1 or 2 overall, or comparing to Edm?Tor???...they relied on one player per draft and tanking /....i am not at all suggesting that......and did not have the base the HAbs have in place already with under 25 talent....and not base don superstars...instead actually based on massive depth and stockpiling kids so that every year you can have a new wave of affordable contracts....it would be an decade worht of usable and manageable assets.....

If you put a line up like this...

Drouin-Domi-Suzuki
Lehk-Kotkaniemi-Ylonen
Teasdale-Poehling-Ikonen
Vedejmo-Evans-Mccarron
Evans-Stapley-Mcshane

Mete-Juulsen
Romanov-Brook
Harris-Fleury
Leskinen-Olofsson

you are guaranteed to be tanking and lottery bound for years. Thus ends up being the same tank/build thru the draft as the other teams mentioned.

A team that tanks right, drafts top 5 (lotterey doesn't guarantee #1) for 2-3 yrs and then a few more drafts in #6-12 range...then they mature and then they have a core of stars. You can't say trade away all our top older players and go 100% young and not think you are going to land lottery type picks. And when you land a few top 10 guys because of this line up you wrote up....you will have to play them and the bottom guys who are likely never to be NHL regulars anyways will be off the team quick enough. And that top line will be our 2nd or 3rd in a few short years lol.

Getting rid of all our top older players guarantees a tank. Period. So your rebuild will be just like the others already tried

seriously imagine your line up next year 20/21 as this year they trade away everyone...that team in 20/21 would be one of the worse in the nHL. That equals tanking.

That line up in say 3-4 yrs may have some potential. but not before that. Ur idea would never work if you want a winning team, a playoff team, a cup team. You can't continually go with young players, which many are decent but many are maybe not even NHL caliber lol
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#8
(2019-06-19, 11:14 AM)Haba-daba-do Wrote:
(2019-06-19, 10:55 AM)krob1000 Wrote:
(2019-06-19, 10:49 AM)Haba-daba-do Wrote: I am not a rebuild fan cause you can not guarantee getting a franchise player.  And a rebuild is at least 5-10 yrs, and during that time imagine getting 0 franchise players (as there arent 1 every year to start with).  PLUS STL just won the cup without having a top 2 pick etc etc...so many reasons why a rebuild doesnt prove a winner.  Look at the Leafs/Winn/Edm.  First 2 have solid line up.  Winn is in serious cap issue.  Leafs may follow.  NHL is turning into...pay star RFAs so building thru multiple top 10 picks won't be feasable soon enough.

I even think the word retool is dumb.  If your roster isn't a cup contender...you should be retooling it all the time until it is.  To me retooling is simply a GM making his team better season after season until they have a roster that can make the playoffs and compete in a deep run.

Not sure you bothered to read? this is not comparable at all to those teams and not sure where you are getting any of this franchise player, 1 or 2 overall, or comparing to Edm?Tor???...they relied on one player per draft and tanking /....i am not at all suggesting that......and did not have the base the HAbs have in place already with under 25 talent....and not base don superstars...instead actually based on massive depth and stockpiling kids so that every year you can have a new wave of affordable contracts....it would be an decade worht of usable and manageable assets.....

If you put a line up like this...

Drouin-Domi-Suzuki
Lehk-Kotkaniemi-Ylonen
Teasdale-Poehling-Ikonen
Vedejmo-Evans-Mccarron
Olofsson-Stapley-Mcshane

Mete-Juulsen
Romanov-Brook
Harris-Fleury
Leskinen-Olofsson

you are guaranteed to be tanking and lottery bound for years.  Thus ends up being the same tank/build thru the draft as the other teams mentioned.

A team that tanks right, drafts top 5 (lotterey doesn't guarantee #1) for 2-3 yrs and then a few more drafts in #6-12 range...then they mature and then they have a core of stars.  You can't say trade away all our top older players and go 100% young and not think you are going to land lottery type picks.  And when you land a few top 10 guys because of this line up you wrote up....you will have to play them  and the bottom guys who are likely never to be NHL regulars anyways will be off the team quick enough.  And that top line will be our 2nd or 3rd in a few short years lol.

Getting rid of all our top older players guarantees a tank.  Period.  So your rebuild will be just like the others already tried

seriously imagine your line up next year 20/21 as this year they trade away everyone...that team in 20/21 would be one of the worse in the nHL.  That equals tanking.

That line up in say 3-4 yrs may have some potential.  but not before that.  Ur idea would never work if you want a winning team, a playoff team, a cup team.  You can't continually go with young players, which many are decent but many are maybe not even NHL caliber lol

I also said acquire the likes of Ghostisbehere, Ehlers....and to acquire vets .....idea would not be to tank for years...would be to tank for next year and next year alone....

I was also implying that as part of those trade packages we would be getting younger prospects and more NHl ready "1st round picks" .....to accelerate it and time it so that while this group is approaching prime (the core group of them)...that they would also be getting continuous help along the way....

This was not an acquire only future picks ....and no vets...was saying the vets you get are former winners, guys just as respect as the likes of Price/Weber,etc...but guys whose contracts have hamstrung their orgs...they offer just as much int he room...and many can still contribute...but their cap hit makes them useless to their current teams...

Also with cap space and as many assets as would be required at any given point you can pull a Vegas and try to add (he messed it up though)....I am not sure you are putting in the necessary thought to all of the pieces, space, ages horizons in place, expansion draft upcoming, value/talent of our current guys, where those other pieces would be soon enough...the fact we would have them and their rights for YEARS....the option to insert mega talent via UFA is still there in future as it is today....I know this is not happening...and I am in fact hoping we sing a UFA...I want to sue the current window...but was more or less just admitting that given the recent contracts....the value of our lineup went through the roof....then i was looking at the guys rumoured available...Ghost, Ehlers, Sam Bennett, etc....then looking ahead realized wow....if ever there was a year for our organization in particular to do something like this....it would be the Lafreniere draft.

This was more an exercise of what if...and the more I envisioned what it would look like that kept me thinking of it ....the more I actually thought about it...the more appealing it became ...logically speaking.....I would not really want to do it....but from a straight up logic perspective...if ever their was a time to do it? It would be now...now you can debate whether it would ever make sense sure...our vets value right after these crazy contracts, alleged two year cap crunch waiting for US TV contract per Friedman, Expansion coming, Lafreniere in 2020 (CLB just sold the farm too....might be able to go after Dubois with enough assets),the fact MB  magically happens to have tons of cap space and has already spent three years acquiring a high end stockpile of young talent....it is just a weird alignment of events that for the first time EVER...I have been able to talk myself through the value in it from a straight up logic perspective....I am the one who does not see the benefit in a multiple year tanking...and the uncertainty that comes with it....this would not be that...it would be much different....but it is not happening so no worries....but was fun to sit and thin about anyway....and like I said the shocking revelation (at least to me) that is might actually make sense in cold hard logic? i had to type it out and see if someone could talk me out of it....so far nobody has actually looked at what I am describing and found a hole....

Let's say you gave up Danault  for Ehlers and SHaw for Ghostisbehere...and moved from there.

Drouin-Domi-Lehkonen
Ehlers-Kotkaniemi-Suzuki
Teasdale-Poehling-Ikonen
Vedejmo-Evans-Mccarron


Thatis not an unentertaining forward grop....and yep, they may get their butt kicks...for a year or two.....but that is about perfect....BUT...which vets would you take on as cap favours to acquire? so now isnert ie. Marleau and a discounted Corey Perry types  as they are steady vets...


Drouin-Domi-LEhkonen
Ehlers-Kotkaniemi-Perry
Marleau-Poehling-Suzuki
Tasdale-Vedejmo-Mccarron
Evans

NOw....what other nearly ready prospects like Suzuki/Poehling types  you would have acquired with the likes of  Gallagher, Weberr, PRice, Petry???now do same on back end....THEN ....add in the future picks...and our other tier of guys....it would be insane and I am sorry but logically speaking ...at this given point in time....it actually makes logical sense...now...this is not factoring in Habs losing fans,etc...the suffering short term....but I have never been a fan of the tank model but this is not that...this is just a whole whack of things lining up at once....fortunately they line up the other way too....we have a steady young base moving in to our old guys closing windows...but it could be something...but won;t be.
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#9
Hey I'm all for ideas to make the team better

I like out of box thinking

I don't really see tho how this would work, but I get it's just an idea on paper

But basically if we are keeping everyone under 25 and just changing our vets for younger players (mostly) and a few other vets (short term)...that really would be a tank for more than 1 season, cause no matter the potential of young players, they are still young players. Young players take a few years in the NHL to really develop. See how many young teams succeed in being good? so I get it, go young asap and have a young affordable good roster ....but the only issue I have with your idea is still that we would be bad for a few years. Now that may not be a bad thing either, in the talk of rebuilding

The leafs did this. Went young (called up many AHL guys to fill roster) and then the only vets were depth UFA 1 yr signings...and they were bad and got Matthews. and it works well cause of the other high draft picks they also got in the many years of being bad. Matthews alone would not work (see Edm). But now I am getting off track and not what you are talking about.

I agree, we had a solid season last year so our vets are worth more today then last summer. But a full overhaul isn't needed. We have some very good vets can help lead us into a championship. But if you want to trade middle vet guys...Petry, Shaw, Bryon for younger players who are projected to be better down the line...hey no problem with that idea.
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#10
(2019-06-19, 12:34 PM)Haba-daba-do Wrote: Hey I'm all for ideas to make the team better

I like out of box thinking

I don't really see tho how this would work, but I get it's just an idea on paper

But basically if we are keeping everyone under 25 and just changing our vets for younger players (mostly) and a few other vets (short term)...that really would be a tank for more than 1 season, cause no matter the potential of young players, they are still young players.  Young players take a few years in the NHL to really develop. See how many young teams succeed in being good?  so I get it, go young asap and have a young affordable good roster ....but the only issue I have with your idea is still that we would be bad for a few years.  Now that may not be a bad thing either, in the talk of rebuilding

The leafs did this.  Went young (called up many AHL guys to fill roster) and then the only vets were depth UFA 1 yr signings...and they were bad and got Matthews.  and it works well cause of the other high draft picks they also got in the many years of being bad.  Matthews alone would not work (see Edm).  But now I am getting off track and not what you are talking about.

I agree, we had a solid season last year so our vets are worth more today then last summer.  But a full overhaul isn't needed.  We have some very good vets can help lead us into a championship.  But if you want to trade middle  vet guys...Petry, Shaw, Bryon for younger players who are projected to be better down the line...hey no problem with that idea.
 Leafs did not do this...nobody has done this....not so close to contending like Montreal would be...it is completely counterintuitive at first......Leafs had a bunch of vet contracts that they could not move...we have several GREAT vet contracts.....and you have to envision after the asset accumulation how much money is available....it is the sheer volume of assets we have that at one time were thought to be difficult to move ie Shaw, Petry...even some said  his of Weber, Price...Gally is a steal...Danault or...Byron ....this is why I think we can add now and compete....but ...we have to factor in the impact internally with respect to our cap signing a Duchene at 10...you could justify Karlsson....but how do you tell Domi he is not worth Duchene money...or Gally,....how do you tell Gally he ins't worth Duchene? but is he?

You also are not factoring in that in two years....our "under 25 guys" are not all that young any more....we would also have other vets by then then on with our cap space...ie. Marleau, Perry or even Markov.. for this year (who you could probably then flip at deadline)....

I think the second year team would be so so...which fine...because at that point the new CBA comes along...and sitting pretty with cap space, mostly young guys not needing protection....and an unprecedented stockpile of talent in system....along with the flexibility to take advantage of that window? it would be an unbelievable emergence of events aligning at once and us sitting as pretty as possible....

I might consider keeping the affordable bunch....unless landing us a key piece ie Shaw for Ghost or Danault or someone for Ehlers...but right now everyone looks like gold and MB looks like a genius...does he sit content knowing that and add pieces? most likely....but I am sorry this scenario and combination of timelines and quality vets with already restocked cupboards, lockout/expansion draft horizion,  Once a decade Franco talent draft, etc is way more appealing than any total rebuild option ever  ...in the parity filled league it is now...you are never really that far off....but nobody has ever amassed the amount of high end depth I am suggesting....the other beauty would be it would almost be self managing re the cap moving forward...would be the truest depth model ever attempted...you would have guys like Suzuki feeling like Charles Hudson on the sidelines by year three...starving for ice...almost like where Leafs were before (but on Steroids and at every position) they blew it with Tavares, Nylander deal...messing up the Marner/Kapanen/Johnsson situation,etc bt...they were sitting pretty (our situation would b WAY better with far more depth lafrneiere, Kotkaniemi, Doim, Drouin, Suzuki, Poehling, Ehlers type, at least one other top 5 pick, and several other Suzuki like comparables but at several positions....it would be unreal...our D would be as deep as Carolina/Nash , our forwards deeper than the Leafs but younger and loaded with future high picks to keep the train fuelled....) and now have backed themselves into a corner....they never should have gone after Tavares...that ruined all of their hard work..
 Anyways...this is doing what is necessary and keeping me occupied until Friday and killing some time....and we both know nothing like this will happen...but it was a lot more fun ot actually imagine than I thought it would be lol!
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#11
So, like, trade everyone over 25 and play the kids.
Or, let's keep pretending this team is "close."

I'd say just keep adding assets and draft picks until Laval is actually decent. Right now, the Habs and the Rocket are full of holes. There's no PPG player up front, yet. The KKid, Poehling and Suzuki might be the ones to do it, but do you think all 3 of these guys get a shot at center in a regular season game? With Julien as coach? Hell is too hot for this to ever happen, even with an injury-filled veteran center roster.
So, it's just grow and not take stupid contracts (like the Mason one) off other team's hands.
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#12
lol Montreal is hosting 2020 draft.....hmmm....how does MB go about landing Lafreniere and being Sainted in Montreal lol....fuel to my imaginary fire!!!!
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#13
(2019-06-19, 01:18 PM)Cal Wrote: So, like, trade everyone over 25 and play the kids.
Or, let's keep pretending this team is "close."

I'd say just keep adding assets and draft picks until Laval is actually decent. Right now, the Habs and the Rocket are full of holes. There's no PPG player up front, yet. The KKid, Poehling and Suzuki might be the ones to do it, but do you think all 3 of these guys get a shot at center in a regular season game? With Julien as coach? Hell is too hot for this to ever happen, even with an injury-filled veteran center roster.
So, it's just grow and not take stupid contracts (like the Mason one) off other team's hands.

IT has always sounded so stupid....but if Erik Karlsson is worth 11.5 then Weber is freaking bargain , especially considering how few real dollars owing and that Nash on hook for recapture.  Price contract now looks reasonable...again, 30 million will have been paid after July 1. Danault, Shaw, Byron, Gally, Petry are all steals and for next two years there is allegedly going to be some pretty significant cap crunch...so while salaries are always expected to go up and are driven by the free agent market...team caps are going to go up minimally if at all.....draft/Laferniere in MTL.....it would be an unbelievable stockpiling....would have to leave the Ferarri's in driveway because the garage is filled with too many Lambo's and Rolls Royce's.....
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