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Donaldson's Value
#61
Of course the returns were underwhelming. Atkins and Shapiro waited past his expiration date.
I'm done complaining about the club and how it's ran.
They clearly know more than I do...
But even the laziest of baseball fans could see they had one of the oldest teams in baseball, they went for it and missed, and they should've cashed their chips in then, but they didn't.

I hope they turn it around within a few years, otherwise it will be another 20 years between playoff appearances.
O' for a good life, we just might have to weaken
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#62
Well that's an incredibly pessimistic outlook to have but ok. Silly

And what chips did they have to cash in that they didn't end up moving eventually? I don't think the returns for anyone other than Donaldson would've been that much different had they traded them earlier. Maybe they would've gotten something for Estrada? Probably not much though.

Over the past two years Atkins has taken out "insurance policies" if you will, if the team didn't live up to expectations. He signed players like Joe Smith, Axford, Oh, Granderson and Pearce to cheap 1-year deals who could be flipped mid-season so that they could still inject talent into the system if their efforts to compete didn't pan out.

Some might call that not committing to what eventually had to be done, and that's fair. The allure of a Wild Card spot is pretty tough to give up on if you feel you have a shot, though. And had the Jays torn it down before 2017 I guarantee there would be fans criticizing Atkins and Shapiro for not trying one more time considering how weak the Wild Card teams ended up being that year. Hindsight goes both ways.
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#63
I agree that the smaller deals with trading Granderson etc mid season have been bright spots for this regime.
But I'm talking when they were initially hired.
I don't think they made a good assessment of the team.
They bungled the EE deal, if they weren't that deadset on signing him, they should've moved him before the deadline.
So a very capable hitter ( at least at the time, he had a great year), could've been dealt for SOMETHING, even if it was for the famous PTBNL.

It seems only now do they have any direction on what the team should be going forward. And I'm ready for that to take a few years, I don't know. Maybe more of the blame should be on AA, instead. He seemingly gutted our system for a shot at a world series appearance. Then Shapiro and Co come in and have to clean up the mess?

Perhaps ownership was forcing them to try and stay competitive, fine, I can buy that, but I would've seen and old team that should have at least retooled by trading EE and Donaldson when they had value.
O' for a good life, we just might have to weaken
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#64
If you are in win now mode, you don't trade your best player just because he has value. You end up weakening the team, and admitting you are not in a "win now" mode.

Holding on to Donaldson an extra year burned them in the end, and for sure they got FAR FAR less, than what they could have got, had they dealt him a year ago...but the Jays weren't in a position to deal him a year ago. They still had a legit shot at the WC, after just following back to back playoff seasons.
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#65
(2018-09-14, 12:19 PM)shadylane Wrote: We'll have to see how much elite baseball Donaldson has left in him at age 33.

I know there were rumours out there that the Cards had offered one of Weaver or Flaherty for Donaldson but frankly I think that's BS. It would not surprise me if the offers for JD were all pretty underwhelming. He wasn't the only 3B available and it was a position that most teams were already set at.

I do agree with the mantra that it's better to trade a guy early than too late.


Report: Blue Jays rejected Donaldson trade that included star rookie

Obviously it isn't 100% confirmed, but I've seen this reported in quite a few places.
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#66
(2018-09-14, 04:58 PM)Chip Wrote: I agree that the smaller deals with trading Granderson etc mid season have been bright spots for this regime.
But I'm talking when they were initially hired.
I don't think they made a good assessment of the team.
They bungled the EE deal, if they weren't that deadset on signing him, they should've moved him before the deadline.
So a very capable hitter ( at least at the time, he had a great year), could've been dealt for SOMETHING, even if it was for the famous PTBNL.

It seems only now do they have any direction on what the team should be going forward. And I'm ready for that to take a few years, I don't know. Maybe more of the blame should be on AA, instead. He seemingly gutted our system for a shot at a world series appearance. Then Shapiro and Co come in and have to clean up the mess?

Perhaps ownership was forcing them to try and stay competitive, fine, I can buy that, but I would've seen and old team that should have at least retooled by trading EE and Donaldson when they had value.

Did they though?

They gave him the best offer of any team - I'd say his agent was as much to blame as anyone. On top of that, his replacement (Morales) has been almost identical to him in terms of value.

I can't fault them at all for thinking they had some sort of shot after 2016.  They certainly weren't going to move him at the deadline in 2016 when they were heading for the playoffs.

Obviously a lot of factors at play made them think going for it in 2017 was a wise idea, so I can't really fault them for that.

In the grand scheme of things, management is supposed to do what's best for the team - rebuilding after 2016 wouldn't have been popular, but it would've been the best move.

After 2017, it was clear the writing was on the wall (to me, anyways).

It's unfortunate they didn't move on from Donaldson and get an elite prospect back, but they'll just have to make due with where they're at.
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#67
It was incredibly wishful thinking to think this team with even older versions of Estrada, Happ, Martin, Tulo, etc, no proper replacements for Bautista/EE, etc, could properly contend.

They should have blown it up a year ago. Management even publicly admitted that from a baseball perspective they should have blown it up much earlier, but that from a business perspective they couldn't (i.e. Rogers wanted to keep the aging stars so they could continue to have high attendance).
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#68
Yikes. Flaherty is looking like a top of the rotation type of pitcher too.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BNightengale/...2937510916
                   
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#69
Giving up 6 years of a potential core piece for 1 year of a player in his 30s just isn't the Cardinals' way. Look at all their other notable acquisitions in the past couple years: Ozuna, Leone, Shreve, O'Neill, Nicasio, Gyorko, Duke. All had multiple years of team control.

And it wasn't like 2018 was a make-or-break year for the Cards. They didn't have to gamble and change course to take advantage of a closing window, for example. So I remain very skeptical that Nightengale's report is accurate.

Furthermore, despite Flaherty's struggles in his brief 2017 audition, he was still thought of as a future big league starter, and very likely a good one. To people following the Cards, his production this year isn't all that surprising. A lot of people were pretty high on him going into the season.
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