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Encarnacion to the Tribe
#41
(2016-12-23, 03:15 AM)Sportking Wrote: If they were willing to pay him that then why wasn't the offer given in spring training? Why did they lowball him with 2 years plus 2 option year.

Than they wait till he hits FA and gives him a hard deadline that they know he wasn't going to take due to wanting to test Free agency. They then pulled the offer after they signed Morales which they still could have done it with Morales playing DH and Edwin playing 1st.

Honestly some of you are so gullible.

Lots of assumptions based on the belief that because a player says that he wants to stay with his team means that he won't refuse an acceptable offer from them. 
He and his agent over valued the market and what teams were willing to pay and I don't blame the Jays for thinking about the team first and working on fielding a competitive team. 
They couldn't put their plans on hold and wait for him to see if there were better offers while losing a chance at signing players who could help the team should he have decided to go with a better offer. 
Team priorities come first and player's second.
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#42
(2016-12-23, 10:35 AM)Andrew Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 10:14 AM)andreroy Wrote: And after the fact, it's too bad the Jays weren't willing to be flexible and re-trenched their position because they undoubtedly are a worse baseball team at the moment. And with a fizzling FA market and limited trade options, I cannot see them getting better.

I still argue they should have signed him last week and figure out the rest later. He presented good value as he did for the Jays for the last 4 or 5 seasons, and when value like that presents itself to you, you damn well better try your best to make the deal.

The flaw in that thinking though is that even had the Jays re-engaged EE there is nothing saying he would have signed that deal either. He very well might have just used that new offer from the Jays to drive up his value with other teams and ignite the bidding war that he and his agent wanted (and the Jays wanted to avoid).

I agree.
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#43
(2016-12-23, 01:07 PM)HIGGINSFAN Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 12:11 AM)Sportking Wrote: Both sides are to blame here and even though the Jays offered the best deal that still doesn't mean they had true intention to sign him.

They had to know he would have never taken that deal once free agency opened. They should have offered that deal in spring training and if they did he would likely be resigned.

I just hope they re invest the money in the bullpen and on Bautista. They really don't have much choice if they hope to win next year.

Not so sure.
In the end, he wanted the big $s and long term and just because he said that he wanted to remain with the Jays, doesn't mean this was true.
I like EE and really hoped that he would remain with the Jays, but he trusted his greedy and incompetent agent and because of this he had to settle for less.
As good a hitter as EE is, his actions proved that he is like the rest and puts money ahead of any loyalties he has for his team.
The Jays will survive without him and will just have to find ways to win without waiting for the big HR.

The same could be said then about jays management about whether their intentions were true
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#44
(2016-12-23, 01:19 PM)Sportking Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 01:07 PM)HIGGINSFAN Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 12:11 AM)Sportking Wrote: Both sides are to blame here and even though the Jays offered the best deal that still doesn't mean they had true intention to sign him.

They had to know he would have never taken that deal once free agency opened. They should have offered that deal in spring training and if they did he would likely be resigned.

I just hope they re invest the money in the bullpen and on Bautista. They really don't have much choice if they hope to win next year.

Not so sure.
In the end, he wanted the big $s and long term and just because he said that he wanted to remain with the Jays, doesn't mean this was true.
I like EE and really hoped that he would remain with the Jays, but he trusted his greedy and incompetent agent and because of this he had to settle for less.
As good a hitter as EE is, his actions proved that he is like the rest and puts money ahead of any loyalties he has for his team.
The Jays will survive without him and will just have to find ways to win without waiting for the big HR.

The same could be said then about jays management about whether their intentions were true

They gave him the biggest offer he'd receive right away.  They told him they needed an answer (and extended the deadline more than once) before moving on, just as they told him they would.

I have a much easier time believing they were genuine about their intentions than Kinzer was.
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#45
From The Score:
Encarncion asked Blue Jays for a 4-years $100M deal after initial offer

But yeah, the Jays really botched this one up. Icon_rolleyes
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#46
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

In my opinion. Edwin was the guy they had to sign, and they failed. He was available, and he affordable.

Management messed this up, whether you want to believe it or not.

I disagree.
Just because EE and his agent said that he wanted to stay in Toronto doesn't mean that it's true.
Refusing a 4 year and $20M/yr. offer leads me to believe that maybe he wasn't fully committed to staying with the Jays.
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#47
(2016-12-23, 01:23 PM)Unreal Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 01:19 PM)Sportking Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 01:07 PM)HIGGINSFAN Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 12:11 AM)Sportking Wrote: Both sides are to blame here and even though the Jays offered the best deal that still doesn't mean they had true intention to sign him.

They had to know he would have never taken that deal once free agency opened. They should have offered that deal in spring training and if they did he would likely be resigned.

I just hope they re invest the money in the bullpen and on Bautista. They really don't have much choice if they hope to win next year.

Not so sure.
In the end, he wanted the big $s and long term and just because he said that he wanted to remain with the Jays, doesn't mean this was true.
I like EE and really hoped that he would remain with the Jays, but he trusted his greedy and incompetent agent and because of this he had to settle for less.
As good a hitter as EE is, his actions proved that he is like the rest and puts money ahead of any loyalties he has for his team.
The Jays will survive without him and will just have to find ways to win without waiting for the big HR.

The same could be said then about jays management about whether their intentions were true

They gave him the biggest offer he'd receive right away.  They told him they needed an answer (and extended the deadline more than once) before moving on, just as they told him they would.

I have a much easier time believing they were genuine about their intentions than Kinzer was.

Same here.
Just because EE was a player fans really liked and was a good hitter doesn't mean that he comes ahead of the team.
I hope he remembers which team gave him the break he needed to achieve the success he's had.
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#48
(2016-12-23, 01:16 PM)northern1 Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 12:44 PM)Andrew Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

That is not how discussions work. You made claim. Its on you to back it up.

Had no idea there were "rules". This is an opinion, as is yours. Your arrogance is unlikely to change my opinion.

My arrogance?  Lol.

You are the one making sarcastic remarks about using the internet instead of, you know, actually backing up your opinion with some facts when people ask you too.

If you state an opinion it is pretty reasonalble for people to ask for some supporting evidence. Telling people to find the evidence for YOUR opinion is pretty ridiculous and makes your opinion pretty worthless.
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#49
(2016-12-23, 01:24 PM)HIGGINSFAN Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

In my opinion. Edwin was the guy they had to sign, and they failed. He was available, and he affordable.

Management messed this up, whether you want to believe it or not.

I disagree.
Just because EE and his agent said that he wanted to stay in Toronto doesn't mean that it's true.
Refusing a 4 year and $20M/yr. offer leads me to believe that maybe he wasn't fully committed to staying with the Jays.

You're right...that may or may not be true....because of the timing of the offer, I don't blame EE for turning it down. However, once they panicked, and sighed Morales and Pearce, the option was still there to look at issuing another offer. For what he signed for, you can't tell me the Jays are better team today than they were at the end of last season...
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#50
(2016-12-23, 01:07 PM)HIGGINSFAN Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 12:11 AM)Sportking Wrote: Both sides are to blame here and even though the Jays offered the best deal that still doesn't mean they had true intention to sign him.

They had to know he would have never taken that deal once free agency opened. They should have offered that deal in spring training and if they did he would likely be resigned.

I just hope they re invest the money in the bullpen and on Bautista. They really don't have much choice if they hope to win next year.

Not so sure.
In the end, he wanted the big $s and long term and just because he said that he wanted to remain with the Jays, doesn't mean this was true.
I like EE and really hoped that he would remain with the Jays, but he trusted his greedy and incompetent agent and because of this he had to settle for less.
As good a hitter as EE is, his actions proved that he is like the rest and puts money ahead of any loyalties he has for his team.
The Jays will survive without him and will just have to find ways to win without waiting for the big HR.
This sums up my belief as well.

I think the Jays handled it well actually.

They wanted him, put their best foot forward right away, and he declined.

Was it not he who also didn't want to negotiate during the season?

Encarnacion had all the time in the world to re-sign with Toronto...He made his choice several times in my eyes.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
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#51
(2016-12-23, 01:32 PM)Andrew Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 01:16 PM)northern1 Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 12:44 PM)Andrew Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

That is not how discussions work. You made claim. Its on you to back it up.

Had no idea there were "rules". This is an opinion, as is yours. Your arrogance is unlikely to change my opinion.

My arrogance?  Lol.

You are the one making sarcastic remarks about using the internet instead of, you know, actually backing up your opinion with some facts when people ask you too.

If you state an opinion it is pretty reasonalble for people to ask for some supporting evidence. Telling people to find the evidence for YOUR opinion is pretty ridiculous and makes your opinion pretty worthless.

A list of available FA is not opinion, it is available on the internet...no?? Not sarcasm as all.

And yes, hearing you think someone's opinion is worthless is hardly surprising.
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#52
(2016-12-23, 01:41 PM)northern1 Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 01:32 PM)Andrew Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 01:16 PM)northern1 Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 12:44 PM)Andrew Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

That is not how discussions work. You made claim. Its on you to back it up.

Had no idea there were "rules". This is an opinion, as is yours. Your arrogance is unlikely to change my opinion.

My arrogance?  Lol.

You are the one making sarcastic remarks about using the internet instead of, you know, actually backing up your opinion with some facts when people ask you too.

If you state an opinion it is pretty reasonalble for people to ask for some supporting evidence. Telling people to find the evidence for YOUR opinion is pretty ridiculous and makes your opinion pretty worthless.

A list of available FA is not opinion, it is available on the internet...no?? Not sarcasm as all.

And yes, hearing you think someone's opinion is worthless is hardly surprising.

You're claiming a bunch of comparables were available...so who are they?

The point some of us are trying to make here is the list you're suggesting we look at isn't as deep as you think it is.
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#53
I am ok with this and wish him well going forward. For some reason(s) which some will not understand he either didn't want to come back, the club wanted to cheap him after he refused the $80M offer, or his agent is a dumb ass. Or maybe a combination of all three.

No matter what the Jays fans will have to put up with him a Cleveland uniform. It is a business guys, move on. I already have and I am as big a Jays fan as anyone.
No Place to Run, No Place to Hide!!
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#54
(2016-12-23, 08:22 AM)northern1 Wrote: Morales and Pearce had better produce this next season, though no fault of their own. The dynamic duo (management) will be roasted by the fan faithful if the offense struggles at all. EE was a long serving, beloved player, who put up monster numbers, and this management could have had him back, if they wanted him.

We don't know for certain that this is true.
I realize that many don't put a lot of faith in what management says, and that's fine, but I for one don't put a lot of faith in what agents say, after all, they are looking to cash in big on their client's big contract.
Yes," EE was a long serving, beloved player, who put up monster numbers," but it seems he forgot who gave him the opportunity to develop his talent when he was struggling to becoming a regular ML player.
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#55
(2016-12-23, 01:37 PM)northern1 Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 01:24 PM)HIGGINSFAN Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 11:57 AM)northern1 Wrote: You have the same lists available to you...check the internet...a wealth of information.

In my opinion. Edwin was the guy they had to sign, and they failed. He was available, and he affordable.

Management messed this up, whether you want to believe it or not.

I disagree.
Just because EE and his agent said that he wanted to stay in Toronto doesn't mean that it's true.
Refusing a 4 year and $20M/yr. offer leads me to believe that maybe he wasn't fully committed to staying with the Jays.

You're right...that may or may not be true....because of the timing of the offer, I don't blame EE for turning it down. However, once they panicked, and sighed Morales and Pearce, the option was still there to look at issuing another offer. For what he signed for, you can't tell me the Jays are better team today than they were at the end of last season...

I'm not sure that they panicked, but instead knew they had to worry about fielding a competitive team and couldn't wait for EE to decide whether or not he would sign with the Jays.
It's a very competitive market and the Jays couldn't put the team's plans for the future on hold because EE was looking out to find a better deal for himself.
EE's agent has proven that he isn't very competent and who knows what he said to the Jays when they made the 4 year offer.  He may have said that EE had a better offer on the table and he and EE believed that they could do way better than the 4 year deal.  He may have said something that EE's chances of signing with the Jays were slim and so the Jays moved on.
Now we know that EE had to settle for less and the Jays could have maybe had him for the 4 year deal.  The problem with this is the Jays couldn't afford to wait to see what might happen.
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#56
Something tells me if EE had signed for more than the Jays offered the same people would be in here decrying how cheap management is. I don't think they could have won this either way. I think EE thought the Indians gave him a better chance at winning a WS and left money on the table for that. I never got the sense that EE / JB are as invested in Toronto the same way DeRozan and Lowry, or Bradley and Giovinco, are.
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#57
(2016-12-23, 01:19 PM)Sportking Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 01:07 PM)HIGGINSFAN Wrote:
(2016-12-23, 12:11 AM)Sportking Wrote: Both sides are to blame here and even though the Jays offered the best deal that still doesn't mean they had true intention to sign him.

They had to know he would have never taken that deal once free agency opened. They should have offered that deal in spring training and if they did he would likely be resigned.

I just hope they re invest the money in the bullpen and on Bautista. They really don't have much choice if they hope to win next year.

Not so sure.
In the end, he wanted the big $s and long term and just because he said that he wanted to remain with the Jays, doesn't mean this was true.
I like EE and really hoped that he would remain with the Jays, but he trusted his greedy and incompetent agent and because of this he had to settle for less.
As good a hitter as EE is, his actions proved that he is like the rest and puts money ahead of any loyalties he has for his team.
The Jays will survive without him and will just have to find ways to win without waiting for the big HR.

The same could be said then about jays management about whether their intentions were true

I agree.

You said in an earlier post "even though the Jays offered the best deal that still doesn't mean they had true intention to sign him",
and this is my response to your post - although EE and his agent said that he wanted to remain in Toronto, maybe this was just a way of forcing the Jays to drive up the offer and over pay or maybe EE wasn't being honest about his wish to remain with the Jays.
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#58
(2016-12-23, 02:13 PM)Hobbes Wrote: Something tells me if EE had signed for more than the Jays offered the same people would be in here decrying how cheap management is. I don't think they could have won this either way. I think EE thought the Indians gave him a better chance at winning a WS and left money on the table for that. I never got the sense that EE / JB are as invested in Toronto the same way DeRozan and Lowry, or Bradley and Giovinco, are.

They would have won this if he had signed with him. People will never be happy seeing a star player like EE go. 

I think what happened here was that you have two arrogant dbags (Shapiro and Kinzer) who had a fair and lucrative deal in front of them that just had to be negotiated. But because they think they are so ***** smart, neither was interested in actually negotiating something fair they wanted to play games, meaning they were only going to make a deal on their respective terms.
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#59
(2016-12-23, 02:13 PM)Hobbes Wrote: Something tells me if EE had signed for more than the Jays offered the same people would be in here decrying how cheap management is. I don't think they could have won this either way. I think EE thought the Indians gave him a better chance at winning a WS and left money on the table for that. I never got the sense that EE / JB are as invested in Toronto the same way DeRozan and Lowry, or Bradley and Giovinco, are.

I agree.
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#60
(2016-12-23, 02:13 PM)Hobbes Wrote: Something tells me if EE had signed for more than the Jays offered the same people would be in here decrying how cheap management is. I don't think they could have won this either way. 

This. All day.
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