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Fun read on why we'll probably re-sign Duchene and Stone
#41
(2019-02-06, 03:15 PM)bicboi Wrote: I wonder if Nashville wants to "upgrade" on theit centres and give us back Turris. We can send them Duchene and have a good cost controlled centre for a while

didn't he have a falling out with Eugene? Why would he want to come back?
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#42
(2019-02-06, 03:27 PM)FashionPolice Wrote:
(2019-02-06, 03:15 PM)bicboi Wrote: I wonder if Nashville wants to "upgrade" on theit centres and give us back Turris. We can send them Duchene and have a good cost controlled centre for a while

didn't he have a falling out with Eugene? Why would he want to come back?

Cuz my naivety and desperation takes over my logic when it comes to this team Wink
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#43
It's funny I was opposed to the trade at the time because I was worried about chemistry and morale because he was so popular with teammates, especially #65. I think my concerns have been proven valid.

But you know what? Looking back, I make that trade now. Why? A) Duchene is clearly an upgrade on Turris. B) The players are professionals and have no one to blame but themselves for their shit attitudes.

People crap on Dorion for making the trade, but those that do are doing so with 20/20 hindsight on the team's performance. Duchene has been great. The team has been awful. Frankly the trade is a no-brainer when you compare the two players' stats.
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#44
100% AR, any chance you get to make an upgrade for a player with Duchenes skill and reputation you do it and so far he hasn't disappointed. My concern with trading him and/or Stone is that it sets us back a few years and honestly I'm a big fan but I've proven to not be a fan of a re-building team and it's been very tough to watch the games.
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#45
I disagree with both of you on that upgrade. Duchene is a better player then Turris but did management not forsee how much he would cost? This is literally the only season Duchene has ever put up elite offensive numbers. If Turris wanted a 7 year deal at $6.5 they should have given unless they were dumb enough to believe that Duchene would be worth his big contract (which they ought to have predicted would be higher given the cap rising). 

Even if management thought Duchene could come cheap on his next contract, like $7.5 million, is he that much better then Turris offensively to warrant that extra $1.5 million that we can spend somewhere else? Turris and Duchene both have a good 200ft game but Duchene is slightly better offensively. We gave up a shit ton for a slight upgrade in offense that was costly. 

If the trade was an honest attempt at an upgrade, i definitely don't have faith in Dorion's ability to judge talent in relation to cap value.
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#46
Also, Koivu is out for the remainder of Minnesota's season.

Let's trade Duchene and try to get Spurgeon from them and their 1st rounder.
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#47
(2019-02-06, 06:16 PM)bicboi Wrote: I disagree with both of you on that upgrade. Duchene is a better player then Turris but did management not forsee how much he would cost? This is literally the only season Duchene has ever put up elite offensive numbers. If Turris wanted a 7 year deal at $6.5 they should have given unless they were dumb enough to believe that Duchene would be worth his big contract (which they ought to have predicted would be higher given the cap rising). 

Even if management thought Duchene could come cheap on his next contract, like $7.5 million, is he that much better then Turris offensively to warrant that extra $1.5 million that we can spend somewhere else? Turris and Duchene both have a good 200ft game but Duchene is slightly better offensively. We gave up a shit ton for a slight upgrade in offense that was costly. 

If the trade was an honest attempt at an upgrade, i definitely don't have faith in Dorion's ability to judge talent in relation to cap value.


Fair points Bic, but with all that said, if we can flip Duchene for a decent package it'll sort of almost negate how much we gave up for him minus the current value of that first round pick.
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#48
(2019-02-06, 08:32 PM)Ryu65 Wrote:
(2019-02-06, 06:16 PM)bicboi Wrote: I disagree with both of you on that upgrade. Duchene is a better player then Turris but did management not forsee how much he would cost? This is literally the only season Duchene has ever put up elite offensive numbers. If Turris wanted a 7 year deal at $6.5 they should have given unless they were dumb enough to believe that Duchene would be worth his big contract (which they ought to have predicted would be higher given the cap rising). 

Even if management thought Duchene could come cheap on his next contract, like $7.5 million, is he that much better then Turris offensively to warrant that extra $1.5 million that we can spend somewhere else? Turris and Duchene both have a good 200ft game but Duchene is slightly better offensively. We gave up a shit ton for a slight upgrade in offense that was costly. 

If the trade was an honest attempt at an upgrade, i definitely don't have faith in Dorion's ability to judge talent in relation to cap value.


Fair points Bic, but with all that said, if we can flip Duchene for a decent package it'll sort of almost negate how much we gave up for him minus the current value of that first round pick.

I agree, as much as Dorion may havr gave up, i do thik he can get a return that'll be decent. If he can do it with Brassard, he ought to be able to do it with Duchene.

Hopefully Duchene signs for 8×8 though lol
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#49
Burke said something sensible for once. That the Duchene trade might look superbad right now, but if the Sens are trying to sign Duchene to 8 years at $64 million in response to the trade ending up being this bad, it's a mistake. Cut your losses and make a move if it aligns with the direction you want to take Dorion
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#50
The only reason why we believe the Sens gave up a ton for Duchene is because it looks like they are going to lose the lottery pick.

No one thought that was going to happen at the time and no GM in Dorions would ever think about finishing that poorly.

There's this weird hindsight thing with the trade because the team has been so shit. And the fall was so unexpected.

Ottawa clearly got the better player in the deal and paid premium but I think the upgrade has been worth it.

The team has been shit for dozens of other reasons other than this.
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#51
(2019-02-06, 06:16 PM)bicboi Wrote: I disagree with both of you on that upgrade. Duchene is a better player then Turris but did management not forsee how much he would cost? This is literally the only season Duchene has ever put up elite offensive numbers. If Turris wanted a 7 year deal at $6.5 they should have given unless they were dumb enough to believe that Duchene would be worth his big contract (which they ought to have predicted would be higher given the cap rising). 

Even if management thought Duchene could come cheap on his next contract, like $7.5 million, is he that much better then Turris offensively to warrant that extra $1.5 million that we can spend somewhere else? Turris and Duchene both have a good 200ft game but Duchene is slightly better offensively. We gave up a shit ton for a slight upgrade in offense that was costly. 

If the trade was an honest attempt at an upgrade, i definitely don't have faith in Dorion's ability to judge talent in relation to cap value.

He is objectively worth the extra money over Turris. It's not a slight upgrade.

In the past calendar year Duchene's has been better than a PPG. Turris best season in Ottawa wasnt better than 0.75. 

That's a third more offensive output from Duchene. If Turris signs at 6M... 8-9M makes sense for Duchene.
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#52
(2019-02-06, 11:18 PM)andreroy Wrote:
(2019-02-06, 06:16 PM)bicboi Wrote: I disagree with both of you on that upgrade. Duchene is a better player then Turris but did management not forsee how much he would cost? This is literally the only season Duchene has ever put up elite offensive numbers. If Turris wanted a 7 year deal at $6.5 they should have given unless they were dumb enough to believe that Duchene would be worth his big contract (which they ought to have predicted would be higher given the cap rising). 

Even if management thought Duchene could come cheap on his next contract, like $7.5 million, is he that much better then Turris offensively to warrant that extra $1.5 million that we can spend somewhere else? Turris and Duchene both have a good 200ft game but Duchene is slightly better offensively. We gave up a shit ton for a slight upgrade in offense that was costly. 

If the trade was an honest attempt at an upgrade, i definitely don't have faith in Dorion's ability to judge talent in relation to cap value.

He is objectively worth the extra money over Turris. It's not a slight upgrade.

In the past calendar year Duchene's has been better than a PPG. Turris best season in Ottawa wasnt better than 0.75. 

That's a third more offensive output from Duchene. If Turris signs at 6M... 8-9M makes sense for Duchene.

Duchene is a career .75 ppg player while Turris is .59ppg over his career. My question is whether that extra .16 is worth spending $2 million more.

I'm not denying that Duchene isn't producing well for the Sens. He is, but it's a slight increase in production, nothing else.

And no, there was tons wrong with the move at the time. We paid premium for someone who had never produced elite numbers in his career while having a capable top line centre at a decent price. We were doing well in the standings too prior to getting Duchene and legitimately had no need for him at the time. At the time of his acquisition, goals were not an issue for the Sens.
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#53
Career ppg is too simplistic. Averages mask the variation in performance. Which means it's of no use when trying to understand potential and when you are determining the worth of an asset you must understand its potential.

In their best seasons Duchene produced at a far more significant rate than Turris. As a Senator his last 82 games is better than anything Tureis ever produced by almost a third.

So Duchene gets a bump in pay because his ceiling is and has proven to be higher than Turris.
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#54
(2019-02-06, 11:50 PM)andreroy Wrote: Career ppg is too simplistic. Averages mask the variation in performance. Which means it's of no use when trying to understand potential and when you are determining the worth of an asset you must understand its potential.

In their best seasons Duchene produced at a far more significant rate than Turris. As a Senator his last 82 games is better than anything Tureis ever produced by almost a third.

So Duchene gets a bump in pay because his ceiling is and has proven to be higher than Turris.

I'm not denying any of that. Duchene is the superior offensive player. I'm arguing that the difference between his and Turris' production wasn't something worth giving up what we gave for him. Sens weren't in any major need of scoring at the time of the trade. That's why it wasn't the smartest trade.

Besides some of your stats are a bit off. Turris' best season with ottawa was 64 points in 82 games, .78 average (career .68 with the Sens). I'm sure his points per 60min isn't too far off from Duchene either. Regardless i think we can agree that Duchene is a better offensive player.
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#55
What I'm wondering is not whether we gave up too much to get Duchene but was he even worth what Colorado was asking? Here's what they received:

To OTT: Centreman Matt Duchene

To NSH: Centreman Kyle Turris

To COL: Conditional first-round pick (OTT), 2019 third-round pick (OTT), Shane Bowers and Andrew Hammond from Ottawa; 2018 second-round pick (NSH), Samuel Girard and Vladislav Kamenev from Nashville
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#56
Not that I think Bowers is a surefire prospect, if we were to move him, i wish it had been a different hole on our roster.

Colorado is definitely the winner in that trade. They have tons of assets they can use to address their issues
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#57
You're losing both.

Dumbass signed his own grave when he said he's gonna spend to the cap TWO SEASONS FROM NOW.

I.e we are going to suck.

They're gone.
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