Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Game Thread: Habs ins New York Part 2
(2018-11-08, 09:42 AM)Gerry Pigeon Wrote:
(2018-11-08, 09:24 AM)Captain aHab Wrote:
(2018-11-08, 12:06 AM)johnnylarue Wrote:
(2018-11-07, 11:59 PM)Leavethecoachalone Wrote:
(2018-11-07, 10:51 PM)sieve Wrote: the English media - 80% of which is based in Toronto - love to shill for Price (Sportsnet, TSN, etc)

but in Québec, for some time, there has been a pocket of the French media that does not hesitate to criticize and question #31
That's really interesting because I live in central English mafia...I dont have access to French media...well I suppose I do on the web...but no channels.   I'm assuming you mean something other than RDS too...I would assume that's just an extension to TSN.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

If you can parlez-vous (or googlez le translate), here's a very sober and critical look at Carey's record over his last 100 games, courtesy of the Francophone Mafia:

https://www.rds.ca/hockey/canadiens/care...-1.6451886

The theme on RDS these past few nights--from guys who generally tell it like it is--is that a franchise player ultimately has to play like one or his team is toast, and Price hasn't been getting it done for nearly two seasons' worth of games now. 

Whoops.

I find it interesting that folks who tend to excuse him will say stuff like "he can't score" or "his dmen are bad". Think about it this way: would it make sense if Crosby stopped scoring and his team lost 1-0 and people said "well Crosby can't stop the puck". Nope. Would people say stuff like "well his dmen can't move the puck well enough for him to do his job". Doubt it - he is elite and people expect his play to be elite.

Crosby's job as an elite player is to score, pass and play 200 feet and he has pretty much always done that at the elite level. And he has not always had a stellar D core behind him to get him the puck.

To me, the problem with Price is that Niemi played visibly better than him last year backstopping the same team. So you cannot blame the team for his performance I think. He has games where he looks lackadaisical and he needs to snap out of it and be elite cause he hasn't been that for a while now.

I see your point, but I do think it's different for goalies.  

For the shots that Carey whiffs on, where he's lined up to the shooter with no screen, I agree 100%, he's not as good as he used to be.   But for the "no chance" goals, where opposing teams are passing the puck from side to side with our swiss cheese D in pathetic pursuit, no goalie's stopping those.  So again, I'd bet you can get a stats guy to show that Carey's Hart Trophy season was partially contributed by solid team D in front of him.

As well, I have seen some defend Max's poor showing last year as team D (ie. Markov and Subban) no longer getting him that breakaway pass.  Finally, I think Crosby's just a cut above.  Most offensive stars WILL be affected by a lowering of the support around them, whether that's a lack of trigger man to pass to, or set-up guy to receive passes from.  Crosby's just silly good, period.  He's unique, the engine, transmission, and tires of his own productivity.  See why I wanted to trade for him? Happy  (I once floated Max/Pleks/Subban/Price for Sid/Letang/Fleury/Kunitz)

Sure but you're still left with the question about why Niemi played better than him behind the same swiss-cheese D last year.
The MB Trifecta: Low Cost, Low Risk, No Return
Reply
Thanks given by:
Buffalo tonight, huh?

Beef on Weck vs Smoked Meat Sandwich
Reply
Thanks given by:
(2018-11-08, 09:45 AM)Captain aHab Wrote:
(2018-11-08, 09:42 AM)Gerry Pigeon Wrote:
(2018-11-08, 09:24 AM)Captain aHab Wrote:
(2018-11-08, 12:06 AM)johnnylarue Wrote:
(2018-11-07, 11:59 PM)Leavethecoachalone Wrote: That's really interesting because I live in central English mafia...I dont have access to French media...well I suppose I do on the web...but no channels.   I'm assuming you mean something other than RDS too...I would assume that's just an extension to TSN.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

If you can parlez-vous (or googlez le translate), here's a very sober and critical look at Carey's record over his last 100 games, courtesy of the Francophone Mafia:

https://www.rds.ca/hockey/canadiens/care...-1.6451886

The theme on RDS these past few nights--from guys who generally tell it like it is--is that a franchise player ultimately has to play like one or his team is toast, and Price hasn't been getting it done for nearly two seasons' worth of games now. 

Whoops.

I find it interesting that folks who tend to excuse him will say stuff like "he can't score" or "his dmen are bad". Think about it this way: would it make sense if Crosby stopped scoring and his team lost 1-0 and people said "well Crosby can't stop the puck". Nope. Would people say stuff like "well his dmen can't move the puck well enough for him to do his job". Doubt it - he is elite and people expect his play to be elite.

Crosby's job as an elite player is to score, pass and play 200 feet and he has pretty much always done that at the elite level. And he has not always had a stellar D core behind him to get him the puck.

To me, the problem with Price is that Niemi played visibly better than him last year backstopping the same team. So you cannot blame the team for his performance I think. He has games where he looks lackadaisical and he needs to snap out of it and be elite cause he hasn't been that for a while now.

I see your point, but I do think it's different for goalies.  

For the shots that Carey whiffs on, where he's lined up to the shooter with no screen, I agree 100%, he's not as good as he used to be.   But for the "no chance" goals, where opposing teams are passing the puck from side to side with our swiss cheese D in pathetic pursuit, no goalie's stopping those.  So again, I'd bet you can get a stats guy to show that Carey's Hart Trophy season was partially contributed by solid team D in front of him.

As well, I have seen some defend Max's poor showing last year as team D (ie. Markov and Subban) no longer getting him that breakaway pass.  Finally, I think Crosby's just a cut above.  Most offensive stars WILL be affected by a lowering of the support around them, whether that's a lack of trigger man to pass to, or set-up guy to receive passes from.  Crosby's just silly good, period.  He's unique, the engine, transmission, and tires of his own productivity.  See why I wanted to trade for him? Happy  (I once floated Max/Pleks/Subban/Price for Sid/Letang/Fleury/Kunitz)

Sure but you're still left with the question about why Niemi played better than him behind the same swiss-cheese D last year.

Which I alluded to in another reply.  Switch roles for Carey and Antti, and I bet Carey's numbers improve while Antti's get worse.  Not the same when you're the number one guy, and the team doesn't play a bit sharper in front of you, cause you're the backup.  Can't prove it, but can't disprove it either...lol  Grin
Reply
Thanks given by:
(2018-11-08, 07:46 AM)Haba-daba-do Wrote: Obviously those against Price these days are always referring to his salary. For me personally this is why I can not honestly comprehend at all the neg feelings fowards Price cause I do not care about his cap, and I dont associate his play to his pay.

I saw that chart on Tim/Sid show. Talking about are those stats for 10M goalie? Well first of all he has only been a 10M golaie for about 10 of those 100 games in all fairness. I mean if u r judging him based on salary then just do so and dont bring in 90 other games where he was paid 6M? (I think?)

So ppl dont like those last 10p game stats for a 10M goalie? But are those stats Ok for a 6M goalie? If price was making 6M this year, would we be ok with how he is playing this season (winning record,over 900 sv% , better then last season, etc).

Honestly I am asking you all who are complaianing? If he was making what most other top starting goalies make, and have a few guys making more money...then is his winning play so far this season Ok?

Again, I just dont get it. Who cares how much he makes? It doesnt stop the team from moving frwd and getting better players (which or GM cant)

If say JT wanted to come but MB said sorry no $ cause its all tied up in Price, then sure hate away. If we had to trade away Kotk cause we couldn't sign him cause all $ tied up in Price, then sure hate him. But Price is playing well this year so far. He hasnt stolen a game but that also has to do with our team taking leads and simply being better this year, he hasnt needed to. But a goalie is there to stop pucks and not to steal games. Price has not cost us any games this year. Yet its not 10M worthy for some. But I honestly want to know if his play is ok if he made millions less.

I just dont get it. Sorry for those who judge via salary. I just cant understand ur POV, as u prob can't see mine.

I accept those who felt the cap should go to bringing in big name players insyead...unfortunately not too many want to come here at this time. And prob even less if Price was gone as players as of last yr still voted him top goalie.

Puts on amateur psychologist hat: Fans aren't the only ones who see Price isn't living up to his salary ... nor his star billing. His teammates are only human, so seeing the praise -- albeit a bit more muted these days -- and the big bucks going to someone contributing less than others, especially if you're the player carrying the load without equal compensation and praise, may have an impact on your play/attitude. 

Is it fair for a teammate or teammates to hold such an opinion of Price and his salary? Maybe, maybe not. The same applies to fans and expectations -- it's only human, even if you consider it a human weakness. 

Of course, that's just speculation. I won't claim to state it as fact.  Wink
Reply
Thanks given by:
(2018-11-08, 07:00 AM)Gerry Pigeon Wrote:
(2018-11-08, 12:33 AM)Leavethecoachalone Wrote:
(2018-11-08, 12:06 AM)johnnylarue Wrote: If you can parlez-vous (or googlez le translate), here's a very sober and critical look at Carey's record over his last 100 games, courtesy of the Francophone Mafia:

https://www.rds.ca/hockey/canadiens/care...-1.6451886

The theme on RDS these past few nights--from guys who generally tell it like it is--is that a franchise player ultimately has to play like one or his team is toast, and Price hasn't been getting it done for nearly two seasons' worth of games now. 

Whoops.

It's more convoluted than just numbers.  Switch Niemi and Price as number one goalies, and I'll bet Niemi's numbers get worse, and Price's better.  It's not easy playing goal behind the D we've had the last two years.  Teams are generally more on their toes defensively when the backup is playing, and Antti's enjoyed more goal support I bet.

the point of the RDS analysis is not to compare Price vs Niemi

the point is:
In short, we are talking about a goalkeeper who, statistically, has been one of the NHL's worst No. 1 gatekeepers for almost two years.

HERE IS THE ARTICLE
pre-translated by Google
Reply
Thanks given by:
(2018-11-08, 09:10 AM)Gerry Pigeon Wrote:
(2018-11-08, 08:43 AM)JF (BC) Wrote: What is interesting about that short RDS piece on Price's numbers over the last 100 games is that the fall-off in his performance can be dated very precisely -- to that game against San Jose at the Bell Centre in December 2016, in which Price gave Michel Therrien the famous stare on his way to the bench after being pulled.  Price's performances through the the rest of that month, January, and the first part of February were uniformly terrible, and did not improve until after Therrien was fired.  It really looked as though he was trying to get Therrien fired.  But his play under Julien has never been nearly as good as it was before that San Jose game, and he was badly outplayed by Lundqvist in the 2017 playoffs.  I don't believe he had even one outstanding game last year, and he has had only one this year.

So what changed during that game in December 2016 and why?

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics Grin  I'll bet if you got a stats guy to crunch some numbers, you could prove there's not much statistical diff between Carey's play just before that fateful game, and after.   

I think the story plays better if that game is noted as some sort of inflection point, and while there's certainly a big difference between Hart Trophy season Carey, and today's Carey, there's also a big diff between the talent and motivation of the two teams in front of him during those separate time periods.  

I'd bet it's just an accumulation of the obvious.  That of wear and tear, age, quality of team D in front of him, and maybe even a bit of distraction in focus, now that there's a new family, and talk about the Habs "reboot" and whether or not Weber and Price should be dealt to help, or if they'd still be useful by the time the Habs are ready to challenge.  

Rinne, Quick, Holtby, etc. have gone through ups and downs, it's apparently a fine line between good and mediocre play in goal.  While I always suspected Price's dips might be physically related, given his injury history, I think the mental side of the game is probably more important for goalies than any other position.  

IF that's Carey's main issue, then maybe he can still get back to a semblance of the good Carey we all want back.  If not, well, I always wanted MB to realize we need to score, so what better way than being unable to defend?  Let's flip the moronic blueprint of the last number of years (win 0-(-1) cause we can't score), to let's score as many as possible, cause we can't defend.  Works for the Leafs...lol.

Gerry, thank u. Very well put
Reply
Thanks given by:
(2018-11-08, 03:07 PM)Haba-daba-do Wrote:
(2018-11-08, 09:10 AM)Gerry Pigeon Wrote:
(2018-11-08, 08:43 AM)JF (BC) Wrote: What is interesting about that short RDS piece on Price's numbers over the last 100 games is that the fall-off in his performance can be dated very precisely -- to that game against San Jose at the Bell Centre in December 2016, in which Price gave Michel Therrien the famous stare on his way to the bench after being pulled.  Price's performances through the the rest of that month, January, and the first part of February were uniformly terrible, and did not improve until after Therrien was fired.  It really looked as though he was trying to get Therrien fired.  But his play under Julien has never been nearly as good as it was before that San Jose game, and he was badly outplayed by Lundqvist in the 2017 playoffs.  I don't believe he had even one outstanding game last year, and he has had only one this year.

So what changed during that game in December 2016 and why?

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics Grin  I'll bet if you got a stats guy to crunch some numbers, you could prove there's not much statistical diff between Carey's play just before that fateful game, and after.   

I think the story plays better if that game is noted as some sort of inflection point, and while there's certainly a big difference between Hart Trophy season Carey, and today's Carey, there's also a big diff between the talent and motivation of the two teams in front of him during those separate time periods.  

I'd bet it's just an accumulation of the obvious.  That of wear and tear, age, quality of team D in front of him, and maybe even a bit of distraction in focus, now that there's a new family, and talk about the Habs "reboot" and whether or not Weber and Price should be dealt to help, or if they'd still be useful by the time the Habs are ready to challenge.  

Rinne, Quick, Holtby, etc. have gone through ups and downs, it's apparently a fine line between good and mediocre play in goal.  While I always suspected Price's dips might be physically related, given his injury history, I think the mental side of the game is probably more important for goalies than any other position.  

IF that's Carey's main issue, then maybe he can still get back to a semblance of the good Carey we all want back.  If not, well, I always wanted MB to realize we need to score, so what better way than being unable to defend?  Let's flip the moronic blueprint of the last number of years (win 0-(-1) cause we can't score), to let's score as many as possible, cause we can't defend.  Works for the Leafs...lol.

Gerry, thank u. Very well put

Don't thank me so soon!  SN devil    I'd still be fine with a trade of Carey, provided MB wins it like the recent moves this summer are looking like.

Nope, I wanted Carey traded before his big payday, as JF is well aware, and was supportive of.  Not because of his declining play necessarily, but because I thought (and still do) that having a goalie as your highest paid player is a silly idea, not conducive to winning games or the Cup.  

As for your argument that MB doesn't need the money to sign a big star (like JT, when he was shopping around), I'd say that might be a bit of a faulty argument.  Kind of like saying we don't need a fire extinguisher around, cause MB already burnt the place down!  Grin   

While it's actually true, there's no cap space required now, it kind of indicates MB mismanaged this thing.  Honestly, by this point in his tenure, shouldn't he be needing the money to keep the talent he groomed that's come of age, and all the FA's knocking on the door to play with our storied Montreal Canadiens? 

In fact, I'm not being sarcastic.  I really believe MB was building from the wrong end, and the players figured it out and became disenchanted.  That leads to dischord, a poor record, and players like JT deciding that he wouldn't even give MB a sniff. 

So if we're going to give MB credit for getting this thing at least partially back on the rails with his moves this summer, then it's only fair to hold him accountable for the moves and decisions that have hurt the team over his tenure.  And I'm still of the opinion MB's barely holding his own, at best...

And I think one of the biggest mistakes was not capitalizing on Carey's value in a trade (props to RN for the idea), soon after that Hart Trophy season.  Just because it's resulted in a significant rebuild effort with an overpaid, aging goalie minding the store and plenty of cap space with no one to spend it on, doesn't mean MB didn't screw up.  Only that there's no longer a need for a fire extinguisher...
Reply
Thanks given by:
Again Gerry, thanks. Cause u have a clear and realistic POV. U dont present it as truth but just opinion and explain it well. U do make some valid pts
Reply
Thanks given by:
(2018-11-08, 04:30 PM)Haba-daba-do Wrote: Again Gerry, thanks. Cause u have a clear and realistic POV. U dont present it as truth but just opinion and explain it well. U do make some valid pts

I didn't present it as truth?  How clumsy of me... Grin  

Been rummaging around in your neck of the woods since Tuesday night, saw the Hockey Hall of Fame yesterday (and the REAL Stanley Cup, as the replica was out getting the Caps team engraved on it).  

Drove me nuts listening to one of those tribute shows to Scott Stevens and all the testimonials from players that said he played "the right way", whatever the hell that means...  Guess that means they thought his applying shoulder to heads at the blueline was a good thing.  To be fair, it was a different time...
Reply
Thanks given by:
(2018-11-08, 12:33 AM)Leavethecoachalone Wrote:
(2018-11-08, 12:06 AM)johnnylarue Wrote: If you can parlez-vous (or googlez le translate), here's a very sober and critical look at Carey's record over his last 100 games, courtesy of the Francophone Mafia:

https://www.rds.ca/hockey/canadiens/care...-1.6451886

The theme on RDS these past few nights--from guys who generally tell it like it is--is that a franchise player ultimately has to play like one or his team is toast, and Price hasn't been getting it done for nearly two seasons' worth of games now. 

Whoops.
Thanks for the share.  Glad to see RDS stepping up.  Those numbers are not good whatsoever.

775 comments...yikes!

One thing for sure is this is a hot topic...and it will likely burn for some time.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

now 1,530 comments and counting
Reply
Thanks given by:
(2018-11-08, 04:46 PM)Gerry Pigeon Wrote:
(2018-11-08, 04:30 PM)Haba-daba-do Wrote: Again Gerry, thanks. Cause u have a clear and realistic POV. U dont present it as truth but just opinion and explain it well. U do make some valid pts

I didn't present it as truth?  How clumsy of me... Grin  

Been rummaging around in your neck of the woods since Tuesday night, saw the Hockey Hall of Fame yesterday (and the REAL Stanley Cup, as the replica was out getting the Caps team engraved on it).  

Drove me nuts listening to one of those tribute shows to Scott Stevens and all the testimonials from players that said he played "the right way", whatever the hell that means...  Guess that means they thought his applying shoulder to heads at the blueline was a good thing.  To be fair, it was a different time...

Hope u r enjoying the city. Its not aa beautiful as Mtl and traffic is horrible. But still a solid place to live. Lots to enjoy, hope u r
Reply
Thanks given by:


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)