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Retooling still in progress.
(2019-01-17, 04:13 PM)habs001 Wrote: Over the years the Habs have picked up more players that performed much better with them than with their previous teams.On the other hand despite the initial angst of posters on basically every player the Habs have lost to other teams very few if any have performed better on their new teams.Just a few of them Andrighetto 3 goals this year,JDLR 3 goals,Beaulieu not getting playing time wishes to be traded,Patery one point minus 7..etc.So management may not be as bad at evaluating talent as posters think as the majority of players no matter where they go do not get better.

Their talent for evaluating talent emerges in hindsight, finding out AFTER they have drafted a player that they made a Beaulieu-boo.
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(2019-01-17, 04:13 PM)habs001 Wrote: Over the years the Habs have picked up more players that performed much better with them than with their previous teams.On the other hand despite the initial angst of posters on basically every player the Habs have lost to other teams very few if any have performed better on their new teams.Just a few of them Andrighetto 3 goals this year,JDLR 3 goals,Beaulieu not getting playing time wishes to be traded,Patery one point minus 7..etc.So management may not be as bad at evaluating talent as posters think as the majority of players no matter where they go do not get better.
People will always focus on one or two trades to make their point. This is too down to earth to really catch.  Wink 
Like: “what trade of Weise and Fleishman?”
“The trade that landed them Danault (one of the top two ways players in the league) and the choice used for Romanov.”
“Yes, but we traded McDonut for Gomez, nuff said.”
"Only one thing matters in life, and it's the cup"  
                                            - Caresse Crosby


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(2019-01-17, 04:48 PM)Leb7 Wrote:
(2019-01-17, 04:13 PM)habs001 Wrote: Over the years the Habs have picked up more players that performed much better with them than with their previous teams.On the other hand despite the initial angst of posters on basically every player the Habs have lost to other teams very few if any have performed better on their new teams.Just a few of them Andrighetto 3 goals this year,JDLR 3 goals,Beaulieu not getting playing time wishes to be traded,Patery one point minus 7..etc.So management may not be as bad at evaluating talent as posters think as the majority of players no matter where they go do not get better.
People will always focus on one or two trades to make their point. This is too down to earth to really catch.  Wink 
Like: “what trade of Weise and Fleishman?”
“The trade that landed them Danault (one of the top two ways players in the league) and the choice used for Romanov.”
“Yes, but we traded McDonut for Gomez, nuff said.”
My point was for the MB era.
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(2019-01-17, 04:55 PM)habs001 Wrote:
(2019-01-17, 04:48 PM)Leb7 Wrote:
(2019-01-17, 04:13 PM)habs001 Wrote: Over the years the Habs have picked up more players that performed much better with them than with their previous teams.On the other hand despite the initial angst of posters on basically every player the Habs have lost to other teams very few if any have performed better on their new teams.Just a few of them Andrighetto 3 goals this year,JDLR 3 goals,Beaulieu not getting playing time wishes to be traded,Patery one point minus 7..etc.So management may not be as bad at evaluating talent as posters think as the majority of players no matter where they go do not get better.
People will always focus on one or two trades to make their point. This is too down to earth to really catch.  Wink 
Like: “what trade of Weise and Fleishman?”
“The trade that landed them Danault (one of the top two ways players in the league) and the choice used for Romanov.”
“Yes, but we traded McDonut for Gomez, nuff said.”
My point was for the MB era.

The real Nelly view is that the young guys who went elsewhere and did no better were permanently ruined by Montreal's "development" system.  Silly

Or, more simply, that the Habs picked poorly to begin with. 

The latter is implied in your original post, and it's a problem that's been discussed here, perhaps more than once.  Wink
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(2019-01-17, 08:34 AM)Strummer Wrote:
(2019-01-16, 08:25 PM)ari Wrote:
(2019-01-16, 07:38 PM)Scriptor Wrote: Ryan Cap hit 7.25M for another 3 years.

Yes.caphit...included 2 million bonuses which he was never able to cash.

which he was never able to cash.

Not true.

He is entitled to a $2 million signing bonus every year.
Part of his contract.
It is not performance related.

$2 million signing bonus + $5.25 million salary = $7.25 million earnings and CAP HIT
 
Carey Price's 8 year contract is made up of $70 million in signing bonus and $14 million in salary.
Averaged over 8 years is a $10.5 million cap hit
You are right.it is signing bonus..it is gonna cost us 5 mil more...Still i rather suffer for 3 years than paying 2.5 for 6 years..We just have more than 8 million wasted in press box and AHL and in Czeck.it is a good replacement plan!
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(2019-01-17, 09:16 PM)ari Wrote:
(2019-01-17, 08:34 AM)Strummer Wrote:
(2019-01-16, 08:25 PM)ari Wrote:
(2019-01-16, 07:38 PM)Scriptor Wrote: Ryan Cap hit 7.25M for another 3 years.

Yes.caphit...included 2 million bonuses which he was never able to cash.

which he was never able to cash.

Not true.

He is entitled to a $2 million signing bonus every year.
Part of his contract.
It is not performance related.

$2 million signing bonus + $5.25 million salary = $7.25 million earnings and CAP HIT
 
Carey Price's 8 year contract is made up of $70 million in signing bonus and $14 million in salary.
Averaged over 8 years is a $10.5 million cap hit
You are right.it is signing bonus..it is gonna cost us 5 mil more...Still i rather suffer for 3 years than paying 2.5 for 6 years..We just have more than 8 million wasted in press box and AHL and in Czeck.it is a good replacement plan!
You can suffer for three years, but you would be unable to fit an 8M contract addition (Stone?) beyond this year, so there would be absolutely no advantage to taking on that Bobby Ryan bad contract other than helping out Eugene.
Ancient Chinese Proverb: A mosquito landing on your testicle should help you realize that violence doesn't solve every problem
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(2019-01-17, 04:13 PM)habs001 Wrote: Over the years the Habs have picked up more players that performed much better with them than with their previous teams.On the other hand despite the initial angst of posters on basically every player the Habs have lost to other teams very few if any have performed better on their new teams.Just a few of them Andrighetto 3 goals this year,JDLR 3 goals,Beaulieu not getting playing time wishes to be traded,Patery one point minus 7..etc.So management may not be as bad at evaluating talent as posters think as the majority of players no matter where they go do not get better.

Better in what sense and to what degree? Jordie Benn is better than Pateryn sure but not by a terribly impressive degree. DLR was "lost" for literally nothing so that's not exactly a brilliant move. Andrighetto was picked by this management team and gotten rid of for very little. Then there's also the entirety of last year's offseason moves basically all of which were awful. I don't see why they should get credit for correcting some of their bad moves. There were some good moves early on in this regime too like getting something for Fleishcman, picking up Weise, Byron, and Domi but the team has been in an overall downward trajectory since they took over so it looks like the bad outweighs the good in this case.
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(2019-01-18, 12:07 AM)mada7 Wrote:
(2019-01-17, 04:13 PM)habs001 Wrote: Over the years the Habs have picked up more players that performed much better with them than with their previous teams.On the other hand despite the initial angst of posters on basically every player the Habs have lost to other teams very few if any have performed better on their new teams.Just a few of them Andrighetto 3 goals this year,JDLR 3 goals,Beaulieu not getting playing time wishes to be traded,Patery one point minus 7..etc.So management may not be as bad at evaluating talent as posters think as the majority of players no matter where they go do not get better.

Better in what sense and to what degree? Jordie Benn is better than Pateryn sure but not by a terribly impressive degree. DLR was "lost" for literally nothing so that's not exactly a brilliant move. Andrighetto was picked by this management team and gotten rid of for very little. Then there's also the entirety of last year's offseason moves basically all of which were awful. I don't see why they should get credit for correcting some of their bad moves. There were some good moves early on in this regime too like getting something for Fleishcman, picking up Weise, Byron, and Domi but the team has been in an overall downward trajectory since they took over so it looks like the bad outweighs the good in this case.
We'll see in three years if there really is an upward trend.
Ancient Chinese Proverb: A mosquito landing on your testicle should help you realize that violence doesn't solve every problem
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(2019-01-18, 12:10 AM)Scriptor Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 12:07 AM)mada7 Wrote:
(2019-01-17, 04:13 PM)habs001 Wrote: Over the years the Habs have picked up more players that performed much better with them than with their previous teams.On the other hand despite the initial angst of posters on basically every player the Habs have lost to other teams very few if any have performed better on their new teams.Just a few of them Andrighetto 3 goals this year,JDLR 3 goals,Beaulieu not getting playing time wishes to be traded,Patery one point minus 7..etc.So management may not be as bad at evaluating talent as posters think as the majority of players no matter where they go do not get better.

Better in what sense and to what degree? Jordie Benn is better than Pateryn sure but not by a terribly impressive degree. DLR was "lost" for literally nothing so that's not exactly a brilliant move. Andrighetto was picked by this management team and gotten rid of for very little. Then there's also the entirety of last year's offseason moves basically all of which were awful. I don't see why they should get credit for correcting some of their bad moves. There were some good moves early on in this regime too like getting something for Fleishcman, picking up Weise, Byron, and Domi but the team has been in an overall downward trajectory since they took over so it looks like the bad outweighs the good in this case.
We'll see in three years if there really is an upward trend.

Given that they are trying to contend now and have been over the duration of this administration I think it's fair to judge their moves based on the immediate impact they've had. If they were doing a slow, systematic deconstruction of the team in order to rebuild from the ground up then I think it's fair to say that we should give them more time and see where that takes them because it's part of a longer term plan. This management team hasn't seemed to have any plan beyond just make the playoffs each year and hope for a miracle.
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(2019-01-18, 08:54 AM)mada7 Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 12:10 AM)Scriptor Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 12:07 AM)mada7 Wrote:
(2019-01-17, 04:13 PM)habs001 Wrote: Over the years the Habs have picked up more players that performed much better with them than with their previous teams.On the other hand despite the initial angst of posters on basically every player the Habs have lost to other teams very few if any have performed better on their new teams.Just a few of them Andrighetto 3 goals this year,JDLR 3 goals,Beaulieu not getting playing time wishes to be traded,Patery one point minus 7..etc.So management may not be as bad at evaluating talent as posters think as the majority of players no matter where they go do not get better.

Better in what sense and to what degree? Jordie Benn is better than Pateryn sure but not by a terribly impressive degree. DLR was "lost" for literally nothing so that's not exactly a brilliant move. Andrighetto was picked by this management team and gotten rid of for very little. Then there's also the entirety of last year's offseason moves basically all of which were awful. I don't see why they should get credit for correcting some of their bad moves. There were some good moves early on in this regime too like getting something for Fleishcman, picking up Weise, Byron, and Domi but the team has been in an overall downward trajectory since they took over so it looks like the bad outweighs the good in this case.
We'll see in three years if there really is an upward trend.

Given that they are trying to contend now and have been over the duration of this administration I think it's fair to judge their moves based on the immediate impact they've had. If they were doing a slow, systematic deconstruction of the team in order to rebuild from the ground up then I think it's fair to say that we should give them more time and see where that takes them because it's part of a longer term plan. This management team hasn't seemed to have any plan beyond just make the playoffs each year and hope for a miracle.
"Given that they are trying to contend now and have been over the duration of this administration I think it's fair to judge their moves based on the immediate impact they've had."

As per you to suit your stance?

"If they were doing a slow, systematic deconstruction of the team in order to rebuild from the ground up then I think it's fair to say that we should give them more time and see where that takes them because it's part of a longer term plan"

Damn right they'd have more time to see where it takes them because it could take forever before anything worthwhile comes of it, if it ever does.
Ancient Chinese Proverb: A mosquito landing on your testicle should help you realize that violence doesn't solve every problem
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(2019-01-18, 09:51 AM)Scriptor Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 08:54 AM)mada7 Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 12:10 AM)Scriptor Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 12:07 AM)mada7 Wrote:
(2019-01-17, 04:13 PM)habs001 Wrote: Over the years the Habs have picked up more players that performed much better with them than with their previous teams.On the other hand despite the initial angst of posters on basically every player the Habs have lost to other teams very few if any have performed better on their new teams.Just a few of them Andrighetto 3 goals this year,JDLR 3 goals,Beaulieu not getting playing time wishes to be traded,Patery one point minus 7..etc.So management may not be as bad at evaluating talent as posters think as the majority of players no matter where they go do not get better.

Better in what sense and to what degree? Jordie Benn is better than Pateryn sure but not by a terribly impressive degree. DLR was "lost" for literally nothing so that's not exactly a brilliant move. Andrighetto was picked by this management team and gotten rid of for very little. Then there's also the entirety of last year's offseason moves basically all of which were awful. I don't see why they should get credit for correcting some of their bad moves. There were some good moves early on in this regime too like getting something for Fleishcman, picking up Weise, Byron, and Domi but the team has been in an overall downward trajectory since they took over so it looks like the bad outweighs the good in this case.
We'll see in three years if there really is an upward trend.

Given that they are trying to contend now and have been over the duration of this administration I think it's fair to judge their moves based on the immediate impact they've had. If they were doing a slow, systematic deconstruction of the team in order to rebuild from the ground up then I think it's fair to say that we should give them more time and see where that takes them because it's part of a longer term plan. This management team hasn't seemed to have any plan beyond just make the playoffs each year and hope for a miracle.
"Given that they are trying to contend now and have been over the duration of this administration I think it's fair to judge their moves based on the immediate impact they've had."

As per you to suit your stance?

"If they were doing a slow, systematic deconstruction of the team in order to rebuild from the ground up then I think it's fair to say that we should give them more time and see where that takes them because it's part of a longer term plan"

Damn right they'd have more time to see where it takes them because it could take forever before anything worthwhile comes of it, if it ever does.

If they're not trying to contend and they're not trying to rebuild what exactly are they trying to do? As far as I can tell those are the only two directions a team could be taking and given that they have publicly stated they have no plans of doing a rebuild and that their goal is to make the playoffs each year I think we can rule out the rebuild option. I suppose there are nonsensical things a team could be doing but even if theyre succeeding at that is that really better than failing at doing something sensible? This is why Bergevin gets so much flak for his "just make the playoffs" goal because it is an idiotic goal with no upward momentum and no vision for how to move beyond that. 

If they're trying to build slowly up into a cup contender they're failing at that since the team has been in an overall downward trend over the last 7 years. If this is only a new plan that they started doing this year WTF were they doing the other seasons and why do they deserve a second attempt at a plan when they spent the first 6 seasons failing at whatever it was they were trying to do

Serious question: By what metric and time frame do you judge this management team's success or failure? I ask because I honestly can't tell. Personally I've had enough with them I've seen 7 years of an overall downward trend and I don't see being able to correct some of their mistakes as justifying even more time running the franchise.
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(2019-01-18, 10:39 AM)mada7 Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 09:51 AM)Scriptor Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 08:54 AM)mada7 Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 12:10 AM)Scriptor Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 12:07 AM)mada7 Wrote: Better in what sense and to what degree? Jordie Benn is better than Pateryn sure but not by a terribly impressive degree. DLR was "lost" for literally nothing so that's not exactly a brilliant move. Andrighetto was picked by this management team and gotten rid of for very little. Then there's also the entirety of last year's offseason moves basically all of which were awful. I don't see why they should get credit for correcting some of their bad moves. There were some good moves early on in this regime too like getting something for Fleishcman, picking up Weise, Byron, and Domi but the team has been in an overall downward trajectory since they took over so it looks like the bad outweighs the good in this case.
We'll see in three years if there really is an upward trend.

Given that they are trying to contend now and have been over the duration of this administration I think it's fair to judge their moves based on the immediate impact they've had. If they were doing a slow, systematic deconstruction of the team in order to rebuild from the ground up then I think it's fair to say that we should give them more time and see where that takes them because it's part of a longer term plan. This management team hasn't seemed to have any plan beyond just make the playoffs each year and hope for a miracle.
"Given that they are trying to contend now and have been over the duration of this administration I think it's fair to judge their moves based on the immediate impact they've had."

As per you to suit your stance?

"If they were doing a slow, systematic deconstruction of the team in order to rebuild from the ground up then I think it's fair to say that we should give them more time and see where that takes them because it's part of a longer term plan"

Damn right they'd have more time to see where it takes them because it could take forever before anything worthwhile comes of it, if it ever does.

If they're not trying to contend and they're not trying to rebuild what exactly are they trying to do? As far as I can tell those are the only two directions a team could be taking and given that they have publicly stated they have no plans of doing a rebuild and that their goal is to make the playoffs each year I think we can rule out the rebuild option. I suppose there are nonsensical things a team could be doing but even if theyre succeeding at that is that really better than failing at doing something sensible? This is why Bergevin gets so much flak for his "just make the playoffs" goal because it is an idiotic goal with no upward momentum and no vision for how to move beyond that. 

If they're trying to build slowly up into a cup contender they're failing at that since the team has been in an overall downward trend over the last 7 years. If this is only a new plan that they started doing this year WTF were they doing the other seasons and why do they deserve a second attempt at a plan when they spent the first 6 seasons failing at whatever it was they were trying to do

Serious question: By what metric and time frame do you judge this management team's success or failure? I ask because I honestly can't tell. Personally I've had enough with them I've seen 7 years of an overall downward trend and I don't see being able to correct some of their mistakes as justifying even more time running the franchise.

I think I had this conversation with Scriptor, and set the time frame at 10 years, with the measuring stick being BOTH the farm club and parent club significantly better than now, and trending up.   Surely, a decade is long enough to accomplish that.  Three more years to go...
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(2019-01-18, 02:36 PM)Gerry Pigeon Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 10:39 AM)mada7 Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 09:51 AM)Scriptor Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 08:54 AM)mada7 Wrote:
(2019-01-18, 12:10 AM)Scriptor Wrote: We'll see in three years if there really is an upward trend.

Given that they are trying to contend now and have been over the duration of this administration I think it's fair to judge their moves based on the immediate impact they've had. If they were doing a slow, systematic deconstruction of the team in order to rebuild from the ground up then I think it's fair to say that we should give them more time and see where that takes them because it's part of a longer term plan. This management team hasn't seemed to have any plan beyond just make the playoffs each year and hope for a miracle.
"Given that they are trying to contend now and have been over the duration of this administration I think it's fair to judge their moves based on the immediate impact they've had."

As per you to suit your stance?

"If they were doing a slow, systematic deconstruction of the team in order to rebuild from the ground up then I think it's fair to say that we should give them more time and see where that takes them because it's part of a longer term plan"

Damn right they'd have more time to see where it takes them because it could take forever before anything worthwhile comes of it, if it ever does.

If they're not trying to contend and they're not trying to rebuild what exactly are they trying to do? As far as I can tell those are the only two directions a team could be taking and given that they have publicly stated they have no plans of doing a rebuild and that their goal is to make the playoffs each year I think we can rule out the rebuild option. I suppose there are nonsensical things a team could be doing but even if theyre succeeding at that is that really better than failing at doing something sensible? This is why Bergevin gets so much flak for his "just make the playoffs" goal because it is an idiotic goal with no upward momentum and no vision for how to move beyond that. 

If they're trying to build slowly up into a cup contender they're failing at that since the team has been in an overall downward trend over the last 7 years. If this is only a new plan that they started doing this year WTF were they doing the other seasons and why do they deserve a second attempt at a plan when they spent the first 6 seasons failing at whatever it was they were trying to do

Serious question: By what metric and time frame do you judge this management team's success or failure? I ask because I honestly can't tell. Personally I've had enough with them I've seen 7 years of an overall downward trend and I don't see being able to correct some of their mistakes as justifying even more time running the franchise.

I think I had this conversation with Scriptor, and set the time frame at 10 years, with the measuring stick being BOTH the farm club and parent club significantly better than now, and trending up.   Surely, a decade is long enough to accomplish that.  Three more years to go...
Ten years should be enough to then pull the plug. I think, by that point, you've run out of arguments if you haven't filled the order.

But tearing down a team to rebuild it can take that or more time. The magic pill to swallow notion is romantic at best and a quite risky venture. Of course, if you have zero confidence in the M and owner conducting the orchestrated retool, it's hard to imagine anything good coming of it. But why, then, should the other method work any better if the same people are in place. If the heads roll, why wouldn't the retool method, building around current strengths not work now?

It's way too complicate at this point, so I will open a bottle of red early.

Enjoy the game.
Ancient Chinese Proverb: A mosquito landing on your testicle should help you realize that violence doesn't solve every problem
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Suggestion:

Benn for Durzi

EDIT: Never mind, he's a right hand shot.
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Quote:Ten years should be enough to then pull the plug. I think, by that point, you've run out of arguments if you haven't filled the order.

But tearing down a team to rebuild it can take that or more time. The magic pill to swallow notion is romantic at best and a quite risky venture. Of course, if you have zero confidence in the M and owner conducting the orchestrated retool, it's hard to imagine anything good coming of it. But why, then, should the other method work any better if the same people are in place. If the heads roll, why wouldn't the retool method, building around current strengths not work now?

Fair enough. I'm out of patience with this group but 3 more years I guess is fair (not like I have a say anyways :P). What is the order though? Is it a cup contender? A conference finals appearance? Just making the playoffs regularly? Being better than what we had last year? Better than where we were when they took over the team? Something else entirely? Some of these are obviously a lot easier than others. For me it'd be a cup contender with multiple long playoff runs and being a top regular season team with a cup win being even better obviously. Is that a fair thing to ask them to accomplish in 3 years? Probably not but they would've had 10 if they didn't spend the first 7 years gradually making the team worse

A tear down and rebuild definitely would take more time and if that was the plan Id have no qualms about giving whoever was in charge more time to truly enact their vision for the team. I also agree completely that trusting the guy that threw the puck in his own net and the beer vendor to handle a job as big as tear down and rebuild would be a bad idea and that's why the only thing I want more than a rebuild is a proper management team in place starting with an actual president of hockey operations and not just the guy who happened to have enough money to buy the team. It's why I keep referring to them as the guy that threw the puck in his own net and a beer vendor when using their names would be shorter.
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