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What's He Worth?
#21
(2018-12-13, 11:41 AM)bfitz77 Wrote: Mathews was drafted 1st overall and according to many on here has a 2 way game that is the best in the league. That's why I think he'll be asking for Mcdavid money. The leafs should sign him early so the rest have to at least get overpaid as well.

Who says he has the best 2 way game in the league?

It better not be anyone who watches him a lot.  

...cuz, he absolutely doesn't. It's good, but not THAT good. 


I love Matthews, he's my favourite player on the Leafs, my kid's room is full of his posters, jerseys and I hope he retires as a Leaf, but he's not the undisputed #2 behind McDavid, in anything other than hype. 

Hell, if he's actually in line to get 12.5M, and Colorado would consider it, I'd deal him 1-for-1 for Nathan MacKinnon in a heartbeat, who is signed for this year and 4 more after it at half that price. Matthews is a better player IMO, but MacKinnon is 23, and he's signed right through his prime for literally half the money that people are talking about Matthews getting.
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#22
(2018-12-13, 11:58 AM)zapzac Wrote:
(2018-12-13, 11:40 AM)Bo Dangles Wrote:
(2018-12-13, 11:39 AM)CTS Wrote: Matthews plays Center,  Rantanen plays wing

There's another reason he's worth more.

How's that rationale work for Point vs Marner?



TB is going to be hard pressed giving Point more than Stamkos and near Kucherov $ given the Cap.

I think most of us expect the Leafs are planning to use near all their available Cap space on two players.


Players and agents (and fans) will definitely look around the League for "comparables" but each teams situation is different.

We are going to be hard pressed to give either guy more than Tavares, given the Cap. 

Ask yourself, why would Point accept a penny less than Marner gets? To win? So why wouldn't Marner accept less to do the same? 

If the Leaf guys are knowingly willing to demand the max even if it means destroying their team depth, why are the rest of the guys around the league going to buy in? The same logic applies to the Leafs that applies anywhere else, IMO.
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#23
I only care about 1 player on this list.. Brock Boeser. If we can sign him for the number being mentioned in here, i'll be thrilled ( 6-ish ). My guess it will be 7+... Either way I'm good with it.

As for the whole Matthews and Marner thing and why some are suggesting the Leafs might have to pay more... 

IMO, it's all about the market. The Leafs almost HAVE to overpay because Leaf faithful will fall off their chairs if one or both players either hold out or don't sign at all... and both players know this. And these are North American guys. Nylander took advantage of this and look at the deal he ended up with.

I'm sure the same can be said about Laine and Connor in Winnipeg, but let's face facts... there's a whole lot more "paying customers" in the GTA vs The Peg.

Sure fans in other NHL cities hold sway , but not even remotely close to TO.... again, just my opinion. 

ALL players are awesome young talents... GREAT days for the NHL and especially , Canadian based teams.


I've never been there before, but once I went there twice...
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#24
(2018-12-13, 12:05 PM)Bo Dangles Wrote:
(2018-12-13, 11:58 AM)zapzac Wrote:
(2018-12-13, 11:40 AM)Bo Dangles Wrote:
(2018-12-13, 11:39 AM)CTS Wrote: Matthews plays Center,  Rantanen plays wing

There's another reason he's worth more.

How's that rationale work for Point vs Marner?



TB is going to be hard pressed giving Point more than Stamkos and near Kucherov $ given the Cap.

I think most of us expect the Leafs are planning to use near all their available Cap space on two players.


Players and agents (and fans) will definitely look around the League for "comparables" but each teams situation is different.

We are going to be hard pressed to give either guy more than Tavares, given the Cap. 

Ask yourself, why would Point accept a penny less than Marner gets? To win? So why wouldn't Marner accept less to do the same? 

If the Leaf guys are knowingly willing to demand the max even if it means destroying their team depth, why are the rest of the guys around the league going to buy in? The same logic applies to the Leafs that applies anywhere else, IMO.



I did not say Point would give a discount a la Stamkos and Kucherov. According to CapFriendly TB only has project 6.3 M cap space with several other RFAs and UFAs.

The Leafs have 23.2M with much of it obviously earmarked for Matthews and Marner.

BOTH GMs have their work cut out for them no doubt.

How the rest of the year plays out, how each individual performs the rest of the year, how the team does, ALL will come into play.

I HOPE the Leafs can sign Matthews for 11 and Marner for no more than 9, we will see. Hopefully not Nov 31 2019!
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#25
It can't be just stats, Bo. A player like Marner lifts the whole team with his play as do Matthews and Tavares. Salary has to based on something way more than numbers. Numbers are so temporary. 84 points this year, 22 points next year. Character is what counts, leadership, consistency, and effort. 
As it happens McDavid deserves to be number one in all those categories anyway, so he should be top dog. As for who follows along after him - you pick.
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#26
(2018-12-13, 12:09 PM)SAVARYGUY Wrote: I only care about 1 player on this list.. Brock Boeser. If we can sign him for the number being mentioned in here, i'll be thrilled ( 6-ish ). My guess it will be 7+... Either way I'm good with it.

As for the whole Matthews and Marner thing and why some are suggesting the Leafs might have to pay more... 

IMO, it's all about the market. The Leafs almost HAVE to overpay because Leaf faithful will fall off their chairs if one or both players either hold out or don't sign at all... and both players know this. And these are North American guys. Nylander took advantage of this and look at the deal he ended up with.

I'm sure the same can be said about Laine and Connor in Winnipeg, but let's face facts... there's a whole lot more "paying customers" in the GTA vs The Peg.

Sure fans in other NHL cities hold sway , but not even remotely close to TO.... again, just my opinion. 

ALL players are awesome young talents... GREAT days for the NHL and especially , Canadian based teams.



I think Boser will get 7 or more.

Last year, I thought he would be even better/higher this year.

Now you guys have Pettersson and I could see him pushing for top salary in the League when he is due, he is awesome.
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#27
I guess it adds a little more fun watching the Leafs vs TB game tonight, Point vs Marner.
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#28
(2018-12-13, 11:39 AM)CTS Wrote: Matthews plays Center,  Rantanen plays wing

There's another reason he's worth more.

Valid
"I drink to make other people interesting"
~ E. Hemmingway
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#29
(2018-12-13, 11:58 AM)zapzac Wrote:
(2018-12-13, 11:40 AM)Bo Dangles Wrote:
(2018-12-13, 11:39 AM)CTS Wrote: Matthews plays Center,  Rantanen plays wing

There's another reason he's worth more.

How's that rationale work for Point vs Marner?



TB is going to be hard pressed giving Point more than Stamkos and near Kucherov $ given the Cap.

I think most of us expect the Leafs are planning to use near all their available Cap space on two players.


Players and agents (and fans) will definitely look around the League for "comparables" but each teams situation is different.

Not even sure if this is what you're saying, zap, but what a team can afford to pay a player due to their cap situation hasn't got anything to do with what a player is worth.
"I drink to make other people interesting"
~ E. Hemmingway
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#30
(2018-12-13, 01:00 PM)Limestoner Wrote:
(2018-12-13, 11:39 AM)CTS Wrote: Matthews plays Center,  Rantanen plays wing

There's another reason he's worth more.

Valid

Usually the thought process behind that though, is that the centerman is driving the line, and making the guys around him better with his playmaking/puck control. Usually a centerman has more assists than goals because he is distributing the puck to his wingers. 

Rantanen's numbers resemble a centerman in that regard, and Matthews resemble a winger. 

Matthews is a good playmaker, but his primary strength is as a finisher/scorer...which is usually more what you think of with an elite winger. They both go against the grain a bit in terms of their numbers versus what you'd expect at their position.

I think the perceived $ value discrepancy has much more to do with where they play on the map, not where they play on the ice.
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#31
These arguments are always entertaining.

You have 1 side arguing worth based on the dollar figure they make and the other side arguing worth over trying to save money for the cap.

Matthew's is 12.5
Marner is 10.5
Point is 10
Rant is 11
Boeser is 6.5

And dont worry the leafs will find the Money to make it work and we'll still get 10 minutes of highlights for Toronto while the rest of canada gets 30 seconds 25 minutes into sportscenter. We will get to listen to every available dman being pursued but the opposing team has to eat salary blah blah blah.

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#32
With this list of players being so impressive do you think this year could be the time for a offer sheet?

Take a guy like Matthews. Arizona could offer him 13.5 and really throw things for a loop. He is the only player that can save that franchise imo. And not just him, Tbay, Winnipeg, Calgary and even Colorado could feel the pinch if they were leaned on. And all of those team are in their window so the picks would't be ideal.
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#33
The Tavares contract probably isn’t helping the Leafs in negotiations either. As unfair as it may be, as Tavares brings more with his game, these negotiations are based largely on stats. You know agents are going to be asking why their guy isn’t worth as much as Tavares when they are putting up more points. Tavares may well finish 3rd or 4th in team scoring this year, and that could be an issue for Dubas at the table.

I realize the whole UFA/RFA dynamics are also in play, but over recent years that hasn’t seemed to matter much when we are discussing long term deals with budding superstars. They don’t appear to come with RFA discounts.

Good problem to have, but I don’t get why they didn’t trade Nylander. I suppose they still can.
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#34
(2018-12-13, 01:03 PM)Limestoner Wrote:
(2018-12-13, 11:58 AM)zapzac Wrote:
(2018-12-13, 11:40 AM)Bo Dangles Wrote:
(2018-12-13, 11:39 AM)CTS Wrote: Matthews plays Center,  Rantanen plays wing

There's another reason he's worth more.

How's that rationale work for Point vs Marner?



TB is going to be hard pressed giving Point more than Stamkos and near Kucherov $ given the Cap.

I think most of us expect the Leafs are planning to use near all their available Cap space on two players.


Players and agents (and fans) will definitely look around the League for "comparables" but each teams situation is different.

Not even sure if this is what you're saying, zap, but what a team can afford to pay a player due to their cap situation hasn't got anything to do with what a player is worth.



I'm saying the Dubas has been planning his Cap space to accommodate BOTH Marner and Matthews next season whereas I'm not sure even TB thought Point would ever require so much Cap space.

I think Point will be a Bridge contract.
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#35
(2018-12-13, 01:21 PM)Bo Dangles Wrote:
(2018-12-13, 01:00 PM)Limestoner Wrote:
(2018-12-13, 11:39 AM)CTS Wrote: Matthews plays Center,  Rantanen plays wing

There's another reason he's worth more.

Valid

Usually the thought process behind that though, is that the centerman is driving the line, and making the guys around him better with his playmaking/puck control. Usually a centerman has more assists than goals because he is distributing the puck to his wingers. 

Ya, I don't agree with this. It's not about the offence as much as it is the D or the "200 foot game". Centreman is the most important position on the ice besides (arguably) the goalie, imo.

Good ones are few and far between. Generational ones are, well, generational. An elite scoring winger is a valuable commodity for sure, but they are more easily got, comparatively speaking.
"I drink to make other people interesting"
~ E. Hemmingway
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#36
I believe that Colorado has been playing MacKinnon, Landeskog and Rantenan on the first line togeather. Could be wrong.


Wonder how Matthews, Tavares and Marner would do togeather.
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#37
$50
cfl
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#38
Offer sheets dont work.

No team can afford to lose that many draft picks. Sure if you have a team that's 1 first line center from being competitive for 2 years but after that your stuck and screwed.

Mathews doenst make Arizona a cup contending team. So losing all those first rounders to maybe make the playoffs is dumb.

Most offer sheets in the past have been to screw a team over. Teams close to the cap or whatnot

Only reason the media is even pretending like it might happen is because they can make it sound like its going to happen to the hockey universe or Toronto. They want as many reasons as possible to talk about Toronto as much as possible.



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#39
I'd give up 4 first rounders for Matthews!
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#40
It's not what we would do but it's what would Carolina or Arizona would do?

Their idiot owner is looking for more offense and vows that they won't draft any more defensemen in the 1st round. That idiot would definitely force his GM to do an offer sheet at $15 mill per over 7 seasons for Matthews. He doesn't know hockey and he's taking advice from a basketball guy in Mark Cuban who is his buddy
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