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What we learned from 'Leaving Neverland' Part I
#21
I'm a fan of his music, but the info around this is too creepy for me to ignore. I'd rather believe potential/alleged victims rather then hold on to a belief that MJ was this flawless pop idol. It's okay to separate the art from the artist.
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#22
I started watching this over the last 2 nights and could barely watch it.
It's very hard to watch and is very disturbing.

As many have said there's a lot of smoke so there probably is fire.
But a few things that have shocked me IF this film is telling the truth.

1) how messed up are these parents?????

and

2) how could one recount a story so flawlessly from when you are so young and also not show very much emotion when doing so?

Other then that it is a pretty disturbing thing to watch and I can see how people are perceiving it as the truth.

I was a little sheltered when MJ was big. I was youngish but also never watched TV or payed attention to the news at all, and I really still don't. My sister had all his albums obviously and I heard his music, but I knew nothing of his social life.

Did anyone think it was weird that he's hold hands with kids and bring them on tour? And who would let their kid go on tour with an adult male and sleep in his bed?

As a parent I find that completely ridiculous and if that's true, those parents should be partially to blamed as well. I would never let my kids sleep over at anyone's house at the age of 7, let alone a strange adult man.
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#23
(2019-03-14, 02:06 PM)bicboi Wrote: I'm a fan of his music, but the info around this is too creepy for me to ignore. I'd rather believe potential/alleged victims rather then hold on to a belief that MJ was this flawless pop idol. It's okay to separate the art from the artist.

Interesting question.

If we found out he was inspired to write Billie Jean right after molesting a young boy, would it be possible to still enjoy the song?
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#24
(2019-03-14, 03:33 PM)Unreal Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 02:06 PM)bicboi Wrote: I'm a fan of his music, but the info around this is too creepy for me to ignore. I'd rather believe potential/alleged victims rather then hold on to a belief that MJ was this flawless pop idol. It's okay to separate the art from the artist.

Interesting question.

If we found out he was inspired to write Billie Jean right after molesting a young boy, would it be possible to still enjoy the song?

Most definitely not, at least for me.

I've had to filter certain songs out of my playlists because i found out that the artists supported Trump, while the song promoted standing up to bullies. The art lost it's value for me.
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#25
I have no idea if he is innocent or guilty and we will probably never know. The timing is suspicous and the money factor is suspicous. They waited until he was dead and they waited until there was financial gain to make these statements yet before they had publically stated that nothing happened. Then you have the countless childhood stars who defend MJ and say nothing ever happened. Are we to believe MJ had a filter and only preyed on the poor boys and not the hollywood kids. Maybe? But from what we have seen with sick people like this they usually dont have any filter. It still doesnt prove he is innocent either though. MJ was weird as shit and clearly was traumatized as a kid. He was incapable of having relationship with women and said to have been chemically castrated. Could he have done it...absolutely

I wont watch this documentary likely cuz if its true i dont want to hear the sick details and if its a lie then it just gives money to these bloodhounds
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#26
(2019-03-14, 04:00 PM)Sportking Wrote: I have no idea if he is innocent or guilty and we will probably never know. The timing is suspicous and the money factor is suspicous. They waited until he was dead and they waited until there was financial gain to make these statements yet before they had publically stated that nothing happened. Then you have the countless childhood stars who defend MJ and say nothing ever happened. Are we to believe MJ had a filter and only preyed on the poor boys and not the hollywood kids. Maybe? But from what we have seen with sick people like this they usually dont have any filter. It still doesnt prove he is innocent either though. MJ was weird as shit and clearly was traumatized as a kid. He was incapable of having relationship with women and said to have been chemically castrated. Could he have done it...absolutely

I wont watch this documentary likely cuz if its true i dont want to hear the sick details and if its a lie then it just gives money to these bloodhounds

That isn't true. Predators very often have a 'type'.

It's certainly possible that these people are out for money, but then why not do it sooner? They also used to defend him.

It can take years to come to terms with something like this, especially when the person in power is a global celebrity.
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#27
(2019-03-14, 04:19 PM)Unreal Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:00 PM)Sportking Wrote: I have no idea if he is innocent or guilty and we will probably never know. The timing is suspicous and the money factor is suspicous. They waited until he was dead and they waited until there was financial gain to make these statements yet before they had publically stated that nothing happened. Then you have the countless childhood stars who defend MJ and say nothing ever happened. Are we to believe MJ had a filter and only preyed on the poor boys and not the hollywood kids. Maybe? But from what we have seen with sick people like this they usually dont have any filter. It still doesnt prove he is innocent either though. MJ was weird as shit and clearly was traumatized as a kid. He was incapable of having relationship with women and said to have been chemically castrated. Could he have done it...absolutely

I wont watch this documentary likely cuz if its true i dont want to hear the sick details and if its a lie then it just gives money to these bloodhounds

That isn't true. Predators very often have a 'type'.

It's certainly possible that these people are out for money, but then why not do it sooner? They also used to defend him.

It can take years to come to terms with something like this, especially when the person in power is a global celebrity.

Why would they defend him and now only come out with this story when it had monetary gain. If they had made a statement before this was released it might have lent a bit more credence to it. 

Like i say im not saying MJ didnt do it. I really dont know if he was sick and twisted or really just wanted his childhood back.
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#28
(2019-03-14, 04:40 PM)Sportking Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:19 PM)Unreal Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:00 PM)Sportking Wrote: I have no idea if he is innocent or guilty and we will probably never know. The timing is suspicous and the money factor is suspicous. They waited until he was dead and they waited until there was financial gain to make these statements yet before they had publically stated that nothing happened. Then you have the countless childhood stars who defend MJ and say nothing ever happened. Are we to believe MJ had a filter and only preyed on the poor boys and not the hollywood kids. Maybe? But from what we have seen with sick people like this they usually dont have any filter. It still doesnt prove he is innocent either though. MJ was weird as shit and clearly was traumatized as a kid. He was incapable of having relationship with women and said to have been chemically castrated. Could he have done it...absolutely

I wont watch this documentary likely cuz if its true i dont want to hear the sick details and if its a lie then it just gives money to these bloodhounds

That isn't true. Predators very often have a 'type'.

It's certainly possible that these people are out for money, but then why not do it sooner? They also used to defend him.

It can take years to come to terms with something like this, especially when the person in power is a global celebrity.

Why would they defend him and now only come out with this story when it had monetary gain. If they had made a statement before this was released it might have lent a bit more credence to it. 

Like i say im not saying MJ didnt do it. I really dont know if he was sick and twisted or really just wanted his childhood back.

Because they were children being manipulated by their idol.

There is very little monetary gain available now, relative to doing this when he was alive.
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#29
(2019-03-14, 05:21 PM)Unreal Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:40 PM)Sportking Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:19 PM)Unreal Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:00 PM)Sportking Wrote: I have no idea if he is innocent or guilty and we will probably never know. The timing is suspicous and the money factor is suspicous. They waited until he was dead and they waited until there was financial gain to make these statements yet before they had publically stated that nothing happened. Then you have the countless childhood stars who defend MJ and say nothing ever happened. Are we to believe MJ had a filter and only preyed on the poor boys and not the hollywood kids. Maybe? But from what we have seen with sick people like this they usually dont have any filter. It still doesnt prove he is innocent either though. MJ was weird as shit and clearly was traumatized as a kid. He was incapable of having relationship with women and said to have been chemically castrated. Could he have done it...absolutely

I wont watch this documentary likely cuz if its true i dont want to hear the sick details and if its a lie then it just gives money to these bloodhounds

That isn't true. Predators very often have a 'type'.

It's certainly possible that these people are out for money, but then why not do it sooner? They also used to defend him.

It can take years to come to terms with something like this, especially when the person in power is a global celebrity.

Why would they defend him and now only come out with this story when it had monetary gain. If they had made a statement before this was released it might have lent a bit more credence to it. 

Like i say im not saying MJ didnt do it. I really dont know if he was sick and twisted or really just wanted his childhood back.

Because they were children being manipulated by their idol.

There is very little monetary gain available now, relative to doing this when he was alive.

Not true he is worth more now dead than he was alive if they choose to sue his estate. 

https://www.billboard.com/articles/busin...d-sony-atv

Also HBO likely wouldnt have pursued this while he was still alive as their would be greater ratings long after his death and nobody to dispute it/get sued over it. 

The timing makes a lot of sense.
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#30
(2019-03-14, 05:45 PM)Sportking Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 05:21 PM)Unreal Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:40 PM)Sportking Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:19 PM)Unreal Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:00 PM)Sportking Wrote: I have no idea if he is innocent or guilty and we will probably never know. The timing is suspicous and the money factor is suspicous. They waited until he was dead and they waited until there was financial gain to make these statements yet before they had publically stated that nothing happened. Then you have the countless childhood stars who defend MJ and say nothing ever happened. Are we to believe MJ had a filter and only preyed on the poor boys and not the hollywood kids. Maybe? But from what we have seen with sick people like this they usually dont have any filter. It still doesnt prove he is innocent either though. MJ was weird as shit and clearly was traumatized as a kid. He was incapable of having relationship with women and said to have been chemically castrated. Could he have done it...absolutely

I wont watch this documentary likely cuz if its true i dont want to hear the sick details and if its a lie then it just gives money to these bloodhounds

That isn't true. Predators very often have a 'type'.

It's certainly possible that these people are out for money, but then why not do it sooner? They also used to defend him.

It can take years to come to terms with something like this, especially when the person in power is a global celebrity.

Why would they defend him and now only come out with this story when it had monetary gain. If they had made a statement before this was released it might have lent a bit more credence to it. 

Like i say im not saying MJ didnt do it. I really dont know if he was sick and twisted or really just wanted his childhood back.

Because they were children being manipulated by their idol.

There is very little monetary gain available now, relative to doing this when he was alive.

Not true he is worth more now dead than he was alive if they choose to sue his estate. 

https://www.billboard.com/articles/busin...d-sony-atv

Also HBO likely wouldnt have pursued this while he was still alive as their would be greater ratings long after his death and nobody to dispute it/get sued over it. 

The timing makes a lot of sense.

Their chances of actually winning anything are far lower now than they were when he was alive.

If all they wanted was money they could've taken this to the family and demanded a settlement.
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#31
(2019-03-13, 09:10 AM)cflisthebest Wrote: yah, you have to PROVE without a shadow of a doubt that he did it.

and you saying "I have no doubt he did it" its not proof.

I believe the phrase you are looking for is "beyond a reasonable doubt" - not the same bar/threshold as you indicate above.
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#32
I watched all 4 hours of the documentary.  Those 2 guys are either the worlds 2 greatest actors...or they were telling the truth.  I was never sure if Michael Jackson was a pedophile - I figured he most likely was but was not 100% sure.  Now I have no doubt.
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#33
I haven’t watched any of this but remember earlier stuff coming out about him having sleep overs with boys, sleep overs where they share the same bed, yikes.

Imagine this wasn’t a famous celebrity, but rather just some random extremely wealthy man most of us have never heard of. If it came out that he had built an amusement park at his home and had young boys spending the night with him, I doubt anybody in here would be defending him.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
Don’t blame the butter for what the bread did
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#34
(2019-03-14, 04:40 PM)Sportking Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:19 PM)Unreal Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:00 PM)Sportking Wrote: I have no idea if he is innocent or guilty and we will probably never know. The timing is suspicous and the money factor is suspicous. They waited until he was dead and they waited until there was financial gain to make these statements yet before they had publically stated that nothing happened. Then you have the countless childhood stars who defend MJ and say nothing ever happened. Are we to believe MJ had a filter and only preyed on the poor boys and not the hollywood kids. Maybe? But from what we have seen with sick people like this they usually dont have any filter. It still doesnt prove he is innocent either though. MJ was weird as shit and clearly was traumatized as a kid. He was incapable of having relationship with women and said to have been chemically castrated. Could he have done it...absolutely

I wont watch this documentary likely cuz if its true i dont want to hear the sick details and if its a lie then it just gives money to these bloodhounds

That isn't true. Predators very often have a 'type'.

It's certainly possible that these people are out for money, but then why not do it sooner? They also used to defend him.

It can take years to come to terms with something like this, especially when the person in power is a global celebrity.

Why would they defend him and now only come out with this story when it had monetary gain. If they had made a statement before this was released it might have lent a bit more credence to it. 

Like i say im not saying MJ didnt do it. I really dont know if he was sick and twisted or really just wanted his childhood back.

I think it is really hard for many of us to understand the behaviour of a vicim of an abusive or sexually abusive relationship, particularly one where the abuse starts when the boys are still to young to recite the alphabet.

The victim can love their abuser or feel like the abuser is the only person in their life who they can depend on. 

Look at Theo Fleury's story. Fleury kept his mouth shut because he thought James was his only hope to making to the NHL. He also did not come forward because he was afraid no one would believe him or that the team would try to protect James.

There are some similarities between Fleury's fears and how people are responding to the claims of MJ's abusers.
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#35
Here is a list of the names of the people who accused Michael Jackson, as as well as reports about others who refused to come forward.
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#36
(2019-03-15, 01:02 PM)TheOilerFan83 Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:40 PM)Sportking Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:19 PM)Unreal Wrote:
(2019-03-14, 04:00 PM)Sportking Wrote: I have no idea if he is innocent or guilty and we will probably never know. The timing is suspicous and the money factor is suspicous. They waited until he was dead and they waited until there was financial gain to make these statements yet before they had publically stated that nothing happened. Then you have the countless childhood stars who defend MJ and say nothing ever happened. Are we to believe MJ had a filter and only preyed on the poor boys and not the hollywood kids. Maybe? But from what we have seen with sick people like this they usually dont have any filter. It still doesnt prove he is innocent either though. MJ was weird as shit and clearly was traumatized as a kid. He was incapable of having relationship with women and said to have been chemically castrated. Could he have done it...absolutely

I wont watch this documentary likely cuz if its true i dont want to hear the sick details and if its a lie then it just gives money to these bloodhounds

That isn't true. Predators very often have a 'type'.

It's certainly possible that these people are out for money, but then why not do it sooner? They also used to defend him.

It can take years to come to terms with something like this, especially when the person in power is a global celebrity.

Why would they defend him and now only come out with this story when it had monetary gain. If they had made a statement before this was released it might have lent a bit more credence to it. 

Like i say im not saying MJ didnt do it. I really dont know if he was sick and twisted or really just wanted his childhood back.

I think it is really hard for many of us to understand the behaviour of a vicim of an abusive or sexually abusive relationship, particularly one where the abuse starts when the boys are still to young to recite the alphabet.

The victim can love their abuser or feel like the abuser is the only person in their life who they can depend on. 

Look at Theo Fleury's story. Fleury kept his mouth shut because he thought James was his only hope to making to the NHL. He also did not come forward because he was afraid no one would believe him or that the team would try to protect James.

There are some similarities between Fleury's fears and how people are responding to the claims of MJ's abusers.

Those are good points as well. Its also possible his death gave them a sense of safety as weird as that sounds. When the person that molested you is the biggest popstar of all time and alive he could have threatened them with litigation or worse. Even if they were telling the truth they could have been afraid. With him dead there is a lot less fear of retalliation. 

To be honest we will never know. I hope if it did happen these 2 men affected seek the proper channels to get help and dont just rely on this for healing.
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#37
Michael Jackson's Defenders Remind Us to Also Believe Men
[color=rgba(27, 27, 27, 0.65098)]The attacks on Leaving Neverland's Wade Robson and James Safechuck highlight how sexual assault is not simply about gender, but people's inclination to side with whoever is most powerful.[/color]
By [color=var(--body-font-color)]Jennifer Wright
Mar 13, 2019
[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.65098)][Image: michaeljackson-1552417542.png?crop=0.502...size=480:*]Illustration by Erin Lux[/color]
Celebrity was very different in Michael Jackson’s age. His age was not so long ago, of course. The '80s and '90s feel very recent, until you remember no one had cell phones. Social media didn’t exist. Most people barely used E-mail. And because of that, the way we encountered famous people came through a careful filter of television talk shows and magazines with beautiful covers and stories that had been run through a publicist. 
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The result was that famous people were not quite as human as they are now. There was no Twitter where a celebrity might rage at an ordinary person for a casual criticism. There was no Instagram where they could broadcast their most spectacular but also most embarrassing moments. They didn’t make Snapchat stories of themselves making mediocre meals for you to mock. Social media has made it so that everyone who wishes to be famous can, indeed, be a little bit famous. But it’s also taken the remoteness out of fame. The appeal of stars used to be, to paraphrase Addison DeWitt “their complete lack of resemblance to normal human beings.” Now, with every stupid tweet a movie star sends out, we remember they’re exactly like us
But back then, celebrities had to choose to walk among us, like Gods descending from Olympus. Looking back on the cult surrounding Jackson and others like him from this time, Craig Jensen wrote in Vulture, “They were like demigods… It all seems religious in retrospect.” The people who loved Michael Jackson did not just love him. They worshipped him. 
They still do, judging from the reactionsto the new documentary Leaving Neverland. The documentary is intended to showcase the stories of Wade Robson and James Safechuck, two men who Jackson befriended as children, and who claim to have been molested by him. The alleged abuse began when Robson was 7 and Safechuck was 10. For a while, the boys were his best friends and child “traveling companions”—which the abundance of archival news footage reminds modern audiences is not, and has never been, a thing. When they grew older, he replaced them with younger boys, to their dismay and great confusion. 
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It’s needless to say that their stories are harrowing, but they are. It’s hard to imagine that anyone would subject themselves to this simply because they are interested in fame, especially given how few, for instance, of Bill O’Reilly’s accusers names are even remembered. Before the documentary ends, Robson and Safechuck discuss how coming forward had made them reviled among certain Michael Jackson fans, send the two men death threats, and create videos discussing how much they hate them. If you are doubtful about this, you can look at the people responding to Leaving Neverland with indignation and furytowards Robson and Safechuck.
I have written about sexual abuse before. That means I have heard all of the thin defenses, like “they’re lying for money”.

This point-of-view conveniently ignores that Jackson, and now his estate, have always had an interest in lying to preserve his vast wealth.
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There’s also, “this is a disservice to the real victims (that is to say, the victims of people we don’t like)”.

Well, since every person accused of a crime has some friends who will come to their defense, this merely insures that it is always terrifying for real victims to come forward. 
There’s also, “if an abuser did not abuse every person they encountered, they are innocent”. 
This argument falls apart immediately, as it should, when applied to any other crime. Arsonists do not burn down every building they enter and murderers do not kill everyone that they meet.
The only difference is that these statements are usually leveled at women, not men. Seeing these comments directed to Safechuck and Robson is a reminder of how sexual abuse, and our willingness to overlook it, does not just have to do with gender. It has to do with how readily people will side with the powerful rather than the powerless.
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It is always easier to side with the powerful. It is less likely to make us reevaluate our worldview and the things we enjoy. Believing Michael is innocent means you never have to stop dancing along to "Smooth Criminal". Believing the powerless means your response to something you may have hitherto enjoyed has to become much more nuanced.
Quote:"It is a reminder of how sexual abuse, and our willingness to overlook it, does not just have to do with gender. It has to do with how readily people will side with the powerful rather than the powerless."

And, if what they’re saying is true, Robson and Safechuck were deeply powerless. When they met Michael Jackson, they were both young children. And not just any young children, but children who adored Jackson. Robson came to Jackson’s attention because he imitated him when he was five years old. Jackson invited him onstage to dance with him, and Robson recalls that he felt he’d met “my idol, my mentor and my God. It was like I’d been anointed.”
Safechuck’s first meeting with Jackson was after he played a Jackson fan in a Pepsi commercial, and remembered that Michael “was larger than life. There are no stars like that now, that kind of megastar. Everyone wanted to meet Michael.” He recalls that Jackson’s attention made him feel like the luckiest boy in the world.
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It was perhaps this level of worship that allowed for the abuse Michael Jackson was reportedly able to inflict. It’s not surprising that the boys were initially reluctant to testify against him in court. Many victims in their position might prefer to settle out of court—if they came forward about accusations at all. Who would rush to condemn a man who, from an early age, they’d not only loved, but idolized? Especially when it meant battling a throng that idolizes him still? 

One of the troubling aspects that comes across repeatedly in the documentary is not just the children’s cult-like devotion to Michael Jackson, but their parents'. It’s too easy just to say that they were fools or stage mothers desperate for success. They still seem overwhelmed describing the first class flights, and going backstage at concerts. No doubt that was very exciting. More than that though, they seemed to feel blessed just by the fact that Michael wanted to be with them, these middle-class, ordinary people that Michael claimed he considered his only true friends. “I loved him,” Safechuck’s mother said, claiming she regarded him as another son. Robson’s sister rapturously recalls the Neverland Ranch as seeming like “a little heaven.” 
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Does that make it seem more normal that, as the documentary shows, Michael slept in the same bed with 7 year olds? Or that he bought them jewelry resembling a wedding ring, which Safechuck holds up with shaking hands? Or that he spent hours each day on the phone with a child? Or that he sent faxes that can only be read as love notes? 
No.
None of it is normal. None of it is commonly considered acceptable. No more so because of the repeated assurances from Michael’s entourage and others on the documentary that “[Michael] is like a 9-year-old little boy.” He was not a 9-year-old boy. He was a 30-something man, with a 30-something man’s body. Frankly, a 30-something man with the moral compass of a 9-year-old does not strike me as a reassuring prospect when it comes to “individuals I’d entrust my child to.” Give me a middle aged man without a toy train running around his bedroom who everyone agrees is a boring, responsible adult who acts his age if I have to entrust a child to someone. Ideally, I’d like him to seem a little put upon, and say something like, “you owe me one.”
It would take incredible mental gymnastics for most of us to think of Jackson’s actions as anything but predatory behavior. If it was a normal man living down the street asking these parents to let their kids vacation with him alone for days, I don’t think they would, for even a second, see him as anything but a likely child molester. I do not think they would hesitate to tell other people to keep their children away from such a man.
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Quote:"It would take incredible mental gymnastics for most of us to think of Jackson’s actions as anything but predatory behavior."

But Jackson wasn’t regarded as a normal man. Robson recalls, when Jackson suggested a sleepover after knowing him briefly, the family feeling like “they’d known him. He was in my living room on the television.” Many people feel like they know him. He was, and still is, fanatically adored. I imagine the voice in a parent's head saying “this is obviously predatory behavior” might be drowned out by the throng of people who shouted and are still shouting “this good, innocent man would never hurt a child.” And there are so many of those voices.

And that throng of people don’t just sing out regarding Michael Jackson. The victims of priest pedophilia talk of being dismissed because they were children, and because priests occupied an important role in their parent’s worldview. Children recall telling their parents about being abused by priests, and the parents slapping them and replying, “You don’t lie about a priest like that.” The Boston Herald recalled that, “Many survivors of clergy sexual abuse have recalled how happy their parents were that a priest—a star in their eyes—was giving their child so much attention.” 
We all have our priests, the figures in culture who we regard as so pure as to be above condemnation.
Wade Robson’s sister notes on the documentary regarding his defenders, “These people don’t even know Michael. They know Michael Jackson the amazing musician and the amazing superstar. I’m not taking anything away from Michael’s talent as a superstar, but as a person, he’s hurt people.” 
No human is infallible, and the sooner we collectively realize that, the better. There are no Gods among us. There are only people. Most of us are trying to be good. Some are bad. Maybe those bad people, too, are trying to be good, and just failing at it much more grievously than the rest of us. 
As for men like Michael Jackson—he was never worthy of worship. He was just a bad man who made good songs.

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/po...explained/
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