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your top 3 players of all time
#61
In terms of greatest in relation to their peers:
Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux

In terms of best actual hockey players (think EA Sports rating where you just assign value based on ability/skill)
Sidney Crosby
Connor McDavid
Peter Forsberg (anything he couldn't do?)

My personal favourites to watch:
Connor McDavid
Pavel Bure
Eric Lindros (at his best, he was an absolute bull in a china shop with all-world skill)
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#62
(2019-01-02, 02:56 AM)teamblue Wrote: What it may come down to is, does Gretzky’s longevity win out? Gretzky has how many scoring records? Orr has how many dman records? Would Orr have more if he didn’t blow out his knee? Does Gretzky being able to play longer than Orr could affect your thoughts on best ever? If Orr’s career spanned as long as Bourque’s let’s say, would his name be in the record books for dmen as much as Gretzky’s is? I didn’t see Orr play, and I’m biased since Gretzky was one of my favourites growing up watching him, but if they had played against each other, it would be an easier way to decipher. Orr was the best of his generation, Gretzky was the best of his. I don’t think there is a right or wrong in who anyone considers best of all time

  I saw Orr play, and he quarterbacked the team... but today, nobody gets the kind of room to skate that he got. He would still own it, though
Phill 2:10-11 
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#63
(2019-01-09, 01:51 PM)Bo Dangles Wrote: In terms of greatest in relation to their peers:
Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux

In terms of best actual hockey players (think EA Sports rating where you just assign value based on ability/skill)
Sidney Crosby
Connor McDavid
Peter Forsberg (anything he couldn't do?)

My personal favourites to watch:
Connor McDavid
Pavel Bure
Eric Lindros (at his best, he was an absolute bull in a china shop with all-world skill)

 Best Euro center in NHL history. Like a bull, and he played like a prairie born and bred Canadian. hon mention is Peter Stastny. Messier? He had the killer hands, and super speed, and the mean streak.... but Foppa was a better all around C  Shocked  Yes, I said it

 I detested Lindros
Phill 2:10-11 
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#64
(2019-01-09, 01:51 PM)Bo Dangles Wrote: Peter Forsberg (anything he couldn't do?)

Stay healthy?
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#65
OOPS*  (think EA Sports rating where you just assign value based on ability/skill) 

Okay No contest is Mario Wayne and Orr. They own their own planet

 So lets drop down one notch:

 Larry Robinson 19 +66 best season, and awesome complete D man
 
 Mike Bossy  69,68, 64, 60, 60 and 59 goals

 Yzerman 65 + 90, 58 plus 79 .. 62 + 65, and in 64 games, a pair of 52's 'Nuff said
Phill 2:10-11 
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#66
(2019-01-09, 01:58 PM)TheOilerFan83 Wrote:
(2019-01-09, 01:51 PM)Bo Dangles Wrote: Peter Forsberg (anything he couldn't do?)

Stay healthy?

 That's because he played with such reckless abandon.  Messier doesn't get my vote because he was so poor defensively.. especially when he lost a draw in his end. That said, the guy was a mean moose, and a great leader, until he got to Vancouver

Peter Stastny put up some huge numbers too... best if I remember was 46 plus 93a
Phill 2:10-11 
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#67
Disagree on Messier’s defence. When he first started, that’s all he had. He was frequently considered for the Selke throughout his career. Less so towards the end.
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#68
(2019-01-09, 02:33 PM)ZappaScores Wrote: Disagree on Messier’s defence. When he first started, that’s all he had. He was frequently considered for the Selke throughout his career. Less so towards the end.

  Okay but here's where I have a huge problem with him. He takes the draw in his own end.  Loses it (43% of the tim)0 and immediately forgets his man, and chases the puck, often out to the point man. He  (Point D) has time and gets the shot away and there is Mark's man, unchecked.. in front of the goalie for the tap in.. and this is imo a very curable flaw, but it was his habit for ages.. but until he got to Vancouver, I considered him the greatest ever... after Mario and Wayne..  He did some stuff here that put him on my schlitts creek list

 He actually played with Troy Murray in Junior,  and they were a killer duo. Sather should have grabbed him in round 3 back in 1980

 I would hand the Selke to Alexandre Burrows, Stan Smyl, Richie Sutter, or Dave Hunter before Mess, and Dave Hunter was maybe the most under rated Oiler back in that day
Phill 2:10-11 
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#69
(2018-12-30, 08:47 PM)Ryu65 Wrote: 1. Ovechkin
2. Federov
3. Gonchar
.
.
5. Gretzky

Kids, this is what your brain on drugs looks like
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#70
Yzerman
Lemieux
Snepsts
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#71
Everyone seems to be overthinking this:

3) Chico Resch 

2) Peter Taglianetti 

1) Butch Goring
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#72
(2019-01-09, 01:49 PM)Highstyx Wrote:
(2019-01-08, 01:35 AM)Gerry Pigeon Wrote: Rocket Richard

Bobby Orr

Mario Lemieux

Rocket carried the hopes and dreams of a whole culture, lead his team to five consecutive Cups while doing all the scoring and his own fighting, against other players, NHL refs, and Clarence Campbell.  No other player carried that burden, and succeeded so valiantly with that kind of weight on him.

Orr transcended his position and forever changed how a defenceman was viewed.  There were other offensive D-men before Orr, but none remotely close to transforming the game the way he did.  Coffey was closest, but came years after, and had Gretzky and Mario helping.  

Mario may have been the most talented player ever.  Yes, Gretzky has all the records and even inspired Mario to greater heights, but Mario had God-given talent supreme.  If Mario's sitting on the bench in a Canada Cup shootout, no way he gets passed over like Wayne did.  Great vision, could pass or shoot, hold off opponents with one hand while scoring with the other.  Just flat out frightening.

 Mark Crawford was a total idiot to sit 99 in that shootout

Agree it wasn't the right move, but it's easy to second guess in hindsight.  

Point is, there was actually a debate afterward, as many fans were outraged, but many also noted Gretzky wasn't exactly the top of mind player when it came to needing a goal in a shootout.  

I doubt Mario would have had that issue.  In fact, if that Canada Cup had rules like the WJC, Mario would have been taking ALL the penalty shots, like Toews in the WJC when he got hot...
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#73
(2019-01-09, 04:26 PM)theDC Wrote:
(2018-12-30, 08:47 PM)Ryu65 Wrote: 1. Ovechkin
2. Federov
3. Gonchar
.
.
5. Gretzky

Kids, this is what your brain on drugs looks like

I think the real question is why is there two spaces between #3 and #5? You could be on to something DC.


P.S, I was only trying to suck up to Viable with that list I knew he'd appreciate it.
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#74
Jagr
Crosby
Lemieux
O' for a good life, we just might have to weaken
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#75
(2019-01-10, 09:34 AM)Ryu65 Wrote:
(2019-01-09, 04:26 PM)theDC Wrote:
(2018-12-30, 08:47 PM)Ryu65 Wrote: 1. Ovechkin
2. Federov
3. Gonchar
.
.
5. Gretzky

Kids, this is what your brain on drugs looks like

I think the real question is why is there two spaces between #3 and #5? You could be on to something DC.


P.S, I was only trying to suck up to Viable with that list I knew he'd appreciate it.

I love how I left it open enough for it to be a few things.

1 - 2 spaces between 3 and 5
2 - Names on the list
3 - The order of the names on the list
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#76
I wish I remembered the guys name, was a scout for Jets 1.0, and was an assistant for Jets 1.0 as well.

He said Crosby was the best hockey player he had ever seen, and he coached against Messier, Gretz, Mario, Guy, and so many others.

I'm appealing to authority on this one, I'll go with Crosby #1. I don't think you could argue that one guy fundamentally changed the game and was so much further ahead of his peers in thinking the game (his points prove this), Wayne #2, and last, I think maybe Mario, the guy was unstoppable. Of course you've got Orr, Ovechkin, McDavid... so really it's a toss up. But I think my 1/2 are right... maybe?
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#77
Curious how you think Crosby fundamentallly changed the game. He could have in a different era, undoubtedly, but he arrived when it was a systems league. Coaching changed the league much more than Crosby did since he arrived.
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#78
(2019-01-10, 12:27 PM)ZappaScores Wrote: Curious how you think Crosby fundamentallly changed the game. He could have in a different era, undoubtedly, but he arrived when it was a systems league. Coaching changed the league much more than Crosby did since he arrived.

So when 99 was playing, and literally no one even touched him, he "changed" the game.

Put 99 in today's league and he is out classed in every way.

Crosby plays a complete game and in today's NHL still put up historic numbers.

I totally agree Crosby should be in the top 5 players ever. If not near the top when he retires.
I don't put Ovie up there because he doesn't play in all areas of the rink and isn't half the complete player Crosby is.
O' for a good life, we just might have to weaken
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#79
(2019-01-10, 12:27 PM)ZappaScores Wrote: Curious how you think Crosby fundamentallly changed the game. He could have in a different era, undoubtedly, but he arrived when it was a systems league. Coaching changed the league much more than Crosby did since he arrived.

I don't think Crosby fundamentally changed the game, Wayner did. I think my writing was the issue on this understanding/misunderstanding.

Gretzky changed the game as he basically made "behind the net" a thing. Sure other players used it, but no one set up shop there as a way to open up the ice in the offensive zone. He also understood better than most that stopping short when attacking froze defenders giving him space, and allowing his wingers to pass him and the defense where setting them up became MUCH easier.

These things are still employed today (behind the net, less and less). Coaching changed because of these things, and that changed the game.
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#80
(2019-01-10, 12:33 PM)Chip Wrote:
(2019-01-10, 12:27 PM)ZappaScores Wrote: Curious how you think Crosby fundamentallly changed the game. He could have in a different era, undoubtedly, but he arrived when it was a systems league. Coaching changed the league much more than Crosby did since he arrived.

So when 99 was playing, and literally no one even touched him, he "changed" the game.

Put 99 in today's league and he is out classed in every way.

Crosby plays a complete game and in today's NHL still put up historic numbers.

I totally agree Crosby should be in the top 5 players ever. If not near the top when he retires.
I don't put Ovie up there because he doesn't play in all areas of the rink and isn't half the complete player Crosby is.

Yes, the reason he wouldn't get the freedom he did then is because he did things that no one really did and forced coaching to change, forced defenders to change, forced goalies to change the way the game was played.
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